Dragon Tactics - How smart and original can you be?

[ivocaliban]

I think one needs to distinguish between stereotypical dragons of myth and how a living creature with a dragon's abilities would actually behave. When one thinks of stereotypical dragon...it's generally nearly invincible and can only be killed by the hero with the weapon. Evil dragons who have been around a while tend to be arrogant and believe themselves indestructable...which inevitably leads to their downfall. While this might not be "realistic" it's certainly a theme often repeated in mythology and fantasy.

Of course, with our modern knowledge one could equip a dragon so that he's essentially a B-52. He could stuff dead cows with explosives, light 'em up and drop 'em on his enemies if he wanted. Or use some delayed fireball spells in creative ways. Basically a dragon bombardier. In most literature dragons tend not to take full advantage of their ability to be far above their earthbound enemies. This, too, ties into their arrogance and sense of superiority...and may just go against their very nature, but it's certainly not beyond reason.

 

[shilsen]

...

The dragon sensed him enter as before, but he dodged the pit trap this time, and snarled at the dragon as he spat off the incantations for a pair of twinned-empowered Polar Rays (one was quickened). Then he watched again in horror as the first spell and 80% of the second spell came hurling back at him for 200+ damage. The dragon had cast spell-turning before appearing.

Yes, much of this was due to the wizard's hubris and incompetence. The same character later balefully polymorphed himself into a bird (he forgot that he couldn't cast in that form) and spent the whole session trying to find an NPC who was high-enough level to successfully dispel it. But I like to think that my crafty dragon's clever strategy helped as well.

Actually, in the case above, neither your player nor you actually knowing the rules really helped . Spell Turning doesn't turn area or effect spells, and since Polar Ray is an effect spell, the Spell Turning would have been useless in this case. Nice story, however.

 

[DMH]

Other than some terrain stuff, the only trick I ever wrote for a dragon was a permanent dimension door that was invisible, covered the whole tunnel and was created by an artifact (very difficult to dispel). It would drop anyone who enters into the red dragon's lava pool. Too bad the dragon always used alter self to make itself look like a saphire (sp).

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Whenever I run a dragon that has a weakness to a paticular energy I make sure he cast protection from elements on him self (if he can). I have my dragons buff up with spells like mage armor and shield. If it can cast 5th level spells I give it quicken spell so it can rebuff itself after the party wizard cast dispel magic and so that it can take full attack actions and then hit you with a bit of extra magic missle damage.
It's all about the spells for me.

Oh and lets not forget about sundering

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, in the case above, neither your player nor you actually knowing the rules really helped . Spell Turning doesn't turn area or effect spells, and since Polar Ray is an effect spell, the Spell Turning would have been useless in this case. Nice story, however.

It's highly nonintuitive that Spell Turning doesn't turn Polar Ray, but you're absolutely right. Wow, so spell-turning turns Horrid Wilting and Magic Missile out of all damaging spells my players actually cast (and they vastly prefer damaging no-save spells to save-or-lose vs. dragons and the like for obvious reasons). Spell turning is much less useful against my PCs than I thought. I learn something new every day. Thanks, Shilsen.

 

[Conaill]

One tactic that I've had which worked very well for another DM:

Dragon with improved disarm. Doesn't have any problem winning the opposed disarm check and swallows the weapon or otherwise puts it out of reach.

Ooh... and don't forget:

Magic weapon shop in the closest town to his lair, where the dragon sells magic weapons at a serious profit to the next set of adventurers. That way, the dragon can get rid of all those useless magic weapons and buy himself something nice instead - like some high-level potions or scrolls. He'll also know exactly what those weapons are capable of when the next bunch of fools tries to get in. Of course, he makes sure none of the weapons are too effective against him, or that he is prepared to counter them. Plus he can feed the PCs some cursed weapons or other items. Plus he gets a head-up from the magic shop whenever some adventurers drop by to stock up.

 

[Ziggy]

You are basing your examples on the fact that the PC is prepared beforehand. If you are going to use the example of a buffed out single class fighter or rogue, then you should at least give the Dragon the same benefit.

And Anyways, flying PCs still can't catch a flying Dragon due to the absurdly high flying speeds of the Dragons. The best shot for the fighter is to catch the Dragon in tight quarters (hopefully squeezed) and have a Ring of freedom of movement (not a given in all campaigns).

Sorry, but you are still wrong. I based my statement on the assumption that the character has the normal equipment and prepation of a 20th level PC, nothing Dragon-specific in there. Of course the Wizard and Cleric will have some long-lasting buffs up (Mindblank, GMW, magic Vestment, etc) but that is they way 20th level PC behave when they want to survive. For the rogue and fighter I assume nothing else than their standard equipment.

A fully buffed fighter or rogue could that this dragon with one hand and their eyes closed while simultanously receiting the Elder Edda backward (pretty hard to do as a fighter, but that's what Buff's are for )

Unless the PC has something to trap it with the Dragon can probably escape if in the open, but that hardly qualifies as soundly beating anybody, does it ?

by average PC I mean a core rulebooks PC built using average wealth but also built through campaingning through the 20 Levels. Supposedly (and this is an opinion) the gear you have in Level 20 should include some subpar items you've actually obtained through your own blood and sweat. This is stuff you've collected through the years, not something you got with your Faerun Express at the Adventuerer'R'US back at Waterdeep the week before. The half price rule for selling is there for a reason.

Having played my 17th level wizard from 1st level in a campaign lasting 4 years I do have a fair idea of what the equipment of a high level party will look like. Even with the half price for selling its not hard to gain access to the most important items unless your DM is totally stingy. With Greater Teleport the largest city in the world is just one spell away, and that is not counting all the Craft Magic XXX feats. And trust me, if you don't have Freedom of movement and fly at higher levels you are just a big pile of XP for the Bad Guys.

And to adress your statement about a spellcaster: Yes, a 20th level caster has a 50% (aproximately based on what others on this thread said) of taking out the dragon with one spell. But therefoer he also has a 50% chance of not killing him. Those aren't particularly good odds in my book.

Bzzzt, wrong again. A 20th level human wizard should have an INT of at least 30 (16 base+5 level +6 item +3 inherent), and that is with a fairly low prime stat (16). He'll have a DC of 10 (base)+9 (level) + 10 (stat) = 29 for his 9th level spells. He will hit with a touch attack unless he rolls a 1, and always penetrates SR. The Dragon has saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13, thus it has 40% chance to save with its strongest save. If you target Will it has only 25% chance, and with Ref it only saves on 18+. And that is not counting spells without any save (just SR).

Basically, fighting a Dragon is unfair. He's a tough monster with some decent spellcasting thrown in. He also has some interesting special qualities. Take into account his excellent perceptions and defenses, and you have one tough mo... That's why fighting Dragons is and always has been about stacking the odds as far possible in your favor. Fair fights are for suckers, and never more so against a Dragon, any Dragon.

I do agree, Dragons are tough, and more than a match for their CR (unless the party is prepared and buffed and manages to get the fight on their terms. Our party killed a CR 23 Battledragon easily bacause we were able to dictate the battlefield and choose the time (long story why). It would have creamed us in a suprise encounter, but fully buffed (everybody had at least 20 spells running before the encounter) it went down in 3 rounds).

But 20th PCs are also insanely powerful, and no CR13 Dragon is a match for them unless the DM stacks the odds totally against the PC (and even naked in an antimagic field a 20th level barbarian would give the Dragon a fair fight).

.Ziggy

 

[ThirdWizard]

In my current campaign I've had two dragon encounters, and the PCs are now 5th level. Both encounters were complete accidents. The dragons had no elaborate traps, and being so young they didn't have minions. In fact, one dragon was scared of a local ogre warlord. Of course, a CR 6 dragon is quite a different thing than a CR 15 dragon, and you have to treat them differently.

I assume that when people say "dragon" they're thinking of Adult/Old or older dragons, ones that have had time to amass followers and learn about the world. But still, the idea of dragons outfitting themselves in magical items and setting elaborate traps in their caverns makes me cringe. I just can't imagine it. That's what minions are for. Kobolds are great for that, and there's a Dynasty of Black Dragons IMC who lord over a great many lizard men. In my last campaign, a Green Dragon of mine was ruler of a clan of Reptilian templated Ogres and a whole lot of kobolds. A Shadow Dragon once was allied with a Necromancer, who had given him command of many undead of his creation.

I think devious traps are great, but when it comes to dragons I prefer to leave the architype in tact and use other tactics to make the encounter memorable, like the magma examples.

 

[Kalendraf]

Party was searching for a green dragon's lair. They had seen it fly overhead and it's lair was rumored to be in this general area. They finally reach a small clearing in the woods near an algae-filled skummy pond. On the opposite side of the pool, they finally see a channel in the rock face leading to a large cave mouth. Bones litter the approach, so this is *obviously* the way into its lair. They head toward the cave mouth, walking around the edge of pond. As they approach the cavemouth, the narrowing entry channel funnels them into a perfect shape for a cone or line spell attack!

They keep a close lookout on the cave mouth. Secretly, the green dragon rises up...from the pond! Dragons have blindsense so he's been able to keep track of their progress around the edge of the pond. Green dragons have waterbreathing, so he's perfectly content to stay under water. (This works for black dragons too). The skummy water prevents anything from being seen in the pond. It turns out the big cave mouth, just leads to a small cave, so the dragon winds up having the party boxed in. The party is in a bad situation, and the dragon knows it. If they plea for their lives, he might be willing to let them go for, say 1 major magic item per character. On the other hand, if he's upset, he'll just unload a cone of acid and nail the entire party in a single blast.

If things manage to go badly for the dragon, he could try to fly off, but it's more likely that he'll just dive back down in the pond to recover.

 

[Aristotle]

I'm all for dragons with spells and the ocasional use of magic items (although I tend to prefer custom dragon-specific items rather than standard treasure).

In one adventure I ran, a dragon spread a thin layer of gold pieces or what looked to be gold pieces across a chamber. Under what looked to be a king's fortune was several feet of soft, non-valuable, metals. As the PCs entered the chamber and started discussing how they would carry the treasure out, the dragon popped through the door and unleashed a fiery blast of his breath weapon. The PCs faired well enough from the initial blast, but found themselves in the middle of a molten pool of soft metal with a dragon guarding the only path to safety.

No, it was not a TPK ... but the party never underestimated a dragon again after that encounter. And they learned not to bother counting money in a lair of a still living dragon.