Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

[Remathilis]

As far as the rudeness goes, I've seen some of it locally at my FLGS. Saturday night is open gaming night at the FLGS, and we have several 4e games going that night (some RPGA, some private). Earlier this summer there was a group of three guys who come by the tables every week and bitch and moan about 4e, preach the superiority of 3e/Pathfinder, heckle the players, and disrupt the game (generally being complete asshats). After several weeks of this, the staff and owner of the store asked them to leave "if you're going to behave like spoiled infants." They haven't been back...good riddance.

Sigh. Its asshats like this that paint all dissenting voices as whiny, frothing h4ters who just wish to see WotC fail so that their beloved game will return to print as they remember it by Peter Atkinson/Paizo/Troll Lord/Pramas/The Ghost of Gary Gygax/whoever.

To borrow a quote heard about recent political discussion in the US: Its not the wisest voices who get the attention, its the shrillest.

 

[Gothmog]

Sigh. Its asshats like this that paint all dissenting voices as whiny, frothing h4ters who just wish to see WotC fail so that their beloved game will return to print as they remember it by Peter Atkinson/Paizo/Troll Lord/Pramas/The Ghost of Gary Gygax/whoever.

To borrow a quote heard about recent political discussion in the US: Its not the wisest voices who get the attention, its the shrillest.

Yep, you nailed it. In no way, shape, or form do I think that all dissenters of 4e, 3e, or any other system are irrational h4ters. Some people will just find a given game not to their tastes, and thats fine. If people can debate and articulate their opinions politely and respectfully, then I welcome that discussion. But there are a number of asshats like I mentioned that really escalate things beyond where they have any business going. In this case, public humiliation drove them away (which is probably the most effective punishment in this situation), but there is no reason to ever tolerate this kind of behavior.

 

[Herschel]

This sort of dismissal surprises me. When I see people post that what happens on messageboards is not representative and what happens at conventions and gamedays is not representative and what happens at gamestores is not representative and then theorize that there are vast numbers of people who there is no way to poll and no way to be sure even exist in any substantial number with a specific viewpoint, I have to be skeptical. I mean, if you want to believe it, more power to you, but it doesn't even rise to the level of insufficient data. The fact of the matter is that people on messageboards, at convention and gmedays, and in gamestores are precisely representative of what they play and think. They just happen to be people who you can actually count and poll.

Except vocal minorities tend to be the ones most often noticed by others. Look at the receont "Town Hall" political meetings here in the US. Does anyone reasonable really think that EVERYONE who voted for a Republican in the latest election is a slobbering nitwit?

Getting real data is always the hard part, but the key is not to rely too heavily on the easy data. That's for talk radio, not resoned responses.

 

[Shemeska]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

And now you've gone and invoked 'em. Lovecraft said something prescient on that issue about calling things up and all, and in this instance the solution is called a report thread button for all sides involved.

 

[Herschel]

Well, yeah.

I guess it depends on whether you're talking about the schism in terms of the total number of D&D players who are not currently playing 4e (which would be at least 8, probably 10/11 of my 11-person 3e group) or the total number of D&D players who think 4e is a blight upon gaming. (which would be 2, maybe 3/11 of the same group)

Obviously the latter number is a lot smaller, but a lot of people seem to be confusing both numbers as suits their agenda - marking the relatively small number of people who absolutely hate 4th edition as the only people not playing it on one hand, or marking everyone who's playing something else as their comrades in hating 4th edition on the other.

I also think you are misrepresenting some information. I never really liked 3E, but I have played it because I really liked the people I played it with. That's what D&D is about for me and I would guess many others.

I happen to like 4E (even with the wonky bits I hated originally) and play that now in both RPGA (which I had never done before, I played the skirmish game in public) and among friends. It is the edition I prefer for many reasons, most of which are based on the people I game with.

In other words, what I prefer and what I play aren't always one and the same.

Had I not gotten involved in the skirmish game followed by message boards I likely would still be running hybrid 2E games on various weekends which is what (I'm pretty sure) Jack was referring to. If I hazard a guess I'd say I was a typical player and now I'm more "extreme" or whatever term you like.

 

[Dannager]

That's true.
No matter how many times you repeat it, it won't change the schism.

Funny, you praise DDI for evidence of 10,000 subscribers (and I agree, praiseworthy), yet 50,000 unique downloads gets dismissed as something not even heard of by most gamers.

50,000 free, unique downloads is great, but it a) gives us an idea of the maximum initial size of the Pathfinder fanbase, and b) is wildly different from a subscription service that requires people to pay actual money for.

You can't really compare the two in any meaningful way.

And the far more significant fraction of gamers who have heard of PF than you give credit for really isn't even relevant. Knowing that PF exists is not a requirement for thinking that 4E is an inferior edition.

No, but I would say it's pretty common for those gamers who frequent game stores, conventions or internet message boards.

 

[Dannager]

Pathfinder being a huge success is not mutually exclusive with most gamers having never heard of Pathfinder.

I do think it is safe to say that Pathfinder is a huge success, and that most gamers have never heard of Pathfinder or Paizo.

This.

I don't think anyone here has said - or even implied - that Pathfinder is a failure.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Sorry, was out of line. Ment it as a tongue in cheek joke, Not as an insult


Folks,

This is an excellent example of insulting and dismissive discourse. We strongly suggest you not engage in discussion in this manner, nor do we encourage that you pick up the gauntlet and reply in kind.
-Umbran

 

[Barcode]

It wasn't enough that you couldn't play in a public room at a college without "normals" poking their heads in and giving you crap for playing this weird game. You travel halfway across the country and pay a pantload of money to sit in a convention center with other people who supposedly like the same things you like and play your weird game with them. Now you have to deal with people specifically coming to where your weird game is being played, and interrupting your weird game to ridicule your preferred flavor of this weird game?

Next Dragon Con, someone should arrange an army of jocks to come through and wedgie this community back into solidarity. Or at least some perspective.

 

[RefinedBean]

Next Dragon Con, someone should arrange an army of jocks to come through and wedgie this community back into solidarity.

Actually, I know a few jocks who'd rather sit down, roll up a character, and play.

You're right about perspective, though. 4E, Pathfinder...whatever. They're just GAMES, for crying out loud.