D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[SlyFlourish]

As we well know, the OGL was pushed through before Hasbro knew what was going on. It’s been well discussed so they are the new landlord.

Except they did it again in 2016 with the 5.1 SRD. They had lots of time trying and not trying the OGL at that point. They didn’t just not like the deal in the early 2000s, they didn’t like the deal they did just seven years earlier well after Hasbro bought WOTC.

 

[mamba]

Noticing that there is a problem and complaining about it is easy. Getting something done about it takes a bit more effort than that.

them complaining about their problem is a good way for others to notice though, and it can lead to results too, see the OGL, people sided with them and WotC caved

Even if there is no direct link between the two, complaining about something and dealing with it are not mutually exclusive

 

[Micah Sweet]

One of the risks inherent in running a business is encountering those operating in bad faith. Or even those operating under a belief that they are operating in good faith, but aren't. Or those that are operating in good faith, but in a situation, for whatever reason, that someone has to lose.

In other words, be prepared. Part of your responsibility if you are running a business, big or small.

Maybe that was malicious on Hasbro's part. Maybe they didn't think of that. Either way, it doesn't matter if you are running a company. Be prepared for every eventuality. Do right by your employees by being prepared. It's part of your job. The world will not be fair to you. Sometimes the reasons are justified. Sometimes the reasons are that you are dealing with a complete scumbag. Either way, don't complain. Figure it out. If you are responsible for the livelihoods of others, I would hope that you step up and figure out this problem instead of sitting down and complaining about it.

I see your point. But look at it from their point of view. They entered an agreement (that they should have been more on top of at the time) that they felt was hurting them. And legitimately so. At face value, this agreement looks like a terrible deal for Hasbro. That opinion was misguided in my opinion and Hasbro should have kept with the status quo, for many reasons (although the outcome of this debacle did benefit smaller publishers in the long run, so maybe this nonsense was good for them, perversely).

If you had signed a cell phone contract, with all kinds of sweet benefits, but later realised that as part of your contract, you were being asked to share your number with telemarketers or some equally horrible thing... would you not want the opportunity to renegotiate that contract?

What exactly does "be prepared" mean to you?

 

[Parmandur]

From there, an even smaller group buys stuff beyond the PHB. These are DMs, and even they rarely venture beyond the core rulebooks. In basketball world, they buy a basketball and follow the schedule at the local gym so they can reserve court time to play. No one else in the group needs to duplicate this effort because they have a game schedule and can't play beyond their current time commitment.

Hey Mike, that's interesting: my experience has always been that people who buy books beyond the PHB are pretty close to identical in Venn overlap with Dungeon Master's, is that something that bears out at a larger scale in your experience? It always made sense to me that all tje 5E books were kind of sold as DM supplements, even having all the player info interspersed, based on what I saw as people's buying habits.

 

[mearls]

Hey Mike, that's interesting: my experience has always been that people who buy books beyond the PHB are pretty close to identical in Venn overlap with Dungeon Master's, is that something that bears out at a larger scale in your experience? It always made sense to me that all tje 5E books were kind of sold as DM supplements, even having all the player info interspersed, based on what I saw as people's buying habits.

That mostly tracks with my experience. Once someone has decided they want to spend time with TTRPGs beyond playing them, they almost invariably want to become a DM. The early products were meant to grab the attention of as many TTRPGers as possible.

There are some exceptions. There are optimizers out there who enjoy breaking down a TTRPG as a system. Like competitive Magic players, they like to understand how the system works and enjoy discovering emergent combos.

That type of player seems like the sort who would love to dive into third party 5e stuff, but at the same time my experience is that they value the challenge of working within strong borders. Using only Hasbro-produced D&D products gives clear limits and a consistency in design that makes optimization a fun challenge.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

What exactly does "be prepared" mean to you?

It means expect the unexpected. If you are running a business, and things go pear-shaped for whatever reason, no one is there to hold your hand. You have the livelihoods of your employees in your hands (and owe something to shareholders if you are a publicly traded company). Figure it out. If you are someone who can't quickly respond to adverse situations, running your own business might not be for you.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

them complaining about their problem is a good way for others to notice though, and it can lead to results too, see the OGL, people sided with them and WotC caved

Even if there is no direct link between the two, complaining about something and dealing with it are not mutually exclusive

That's true.

 

[whimsychris123]

Looking through much of this thread, I can see that many people don't understand the point.

The only relevant arguments against the OP are that a) nobody is avoiding buying 5e due to their feelings about Hasbro, and b) supporting any kind of 5e supports the whole ecosystem of 5e, and therefore, supports Hasbro. Both these arguments contradict each other but should still be addressed separately.

There have been enough comments on this thread to show that, yes, people are avoiding all things 5e - Hasbro or otherwise - due to Hasbro's actions. That suggests that the OP does have a relevant argument.

As for the second argument, I see some validity in it. If I buy a 5e adventure to run, even if it is published by Kobold Press, my players are more likely to buy a D&D Player's Handbook or use D&D Beyond. However, refusing to buy anything 5e-related is more likely to hurt those independent publishers of 5e materials, including EN Publishing and Kobold Press, than Hasbro. If someone were upset with WotC/Hasbro about the whole OGL fiasco because the company's actions would hurt independent 5e publishers, why would such a person then take another stance that would also hurt independent 5e publishers?

Level Up 5e is not D&D. Tales of the Valiant is not D&D. Even 5e adventures and settings published by independent publishers are not D&D because players have a plethora of 5e systems to choose from. Supporting independent publishers likely has a negligible effect on Hasbro's bottom line. By refusing to buy all 5e products, regardless of publisher, you are hurting the very people the consumers were trying to protect during the OGL fiasco. Refusing to buy 5e at all was never the goal.

 

[TheSword]

Looking through much of this thread, I can see that many people don't understand the point.

The only relevant arguments against the OP are that a) nobody is avoiding buying 5e due to their feelings about Hasbro, and b) supporting any kind of 5e supports the whole ecosystem of 5e, and therefore, supports Hasbro. Both these arguments contradict each other but should still be addressed separately.

There have been enough comments on this thread to show that, yes, people are avoiding all things 5e - Hasbro or otherwise - due to Hasbro's actions. That suggests that the OP does have a relevant argument.

As for the second argument, I see some validity in it. If I buy a 5e adventure to run, even if it is published by Kobold Press, my players are more likely to buy a D&D Player's Handbook or use D&D Beyond. However, refusing to buy anything 5e-related is more likely to hurt those independent publishers of 5e materials, including EN Publishing and Kobold Press, than Hasbro. If someone were upset with WotC/Hasbro about the whole OGL fiasco because the company's actions would hurt independent 5e publishers, why would such a person then take another stance that would also hurt independent 5e publishers?

Level Up 5e is not D&D. Tales of the Valiant is not D&D. Even 5e adventures and settings published by independent publishers are not D&D because players have a plethora of 5e systems to choose from. Supporting independent publishers likely has a negligible effect on Hasbro's bottom line. By refusing to buy all 5e products, regardless of publisher, you are hurting the very people the consumers were trying to protect during the OGL fiasco. Refusing to buy 5e at all was never the goal.

My feeling about this is that they’re called ‘clones’ for a reason. Filing the serial numbers off, and changing 5% of the rules does not stop 3pp being D&D. You can call Paizo’s update of D&D 3e Pathfinder but it’s still D&D for all intents and purposes. Most even market off the fact that are still compatible and were expressly designed for this such as Level Up. Furthermore denying the root D&D that these clones grew would strikes me as fairly egotistical. I don’t believe most 3pp do that.

On the other hand It was argued repeatedly that 3pp were essential to the survival and success of DnD. That was one of arguments used to portray WotC/Hasbro as ungrateful and greedy for wanting to revise the OGL back in January. If they are essential then how can they not benefit the parent company and the brand.

 

[whimsychris123]

My feeling about this is that they’re called ‘clones’ for a reason. Filing the serial numbers off, and changing 5% of the rules does not stop 3pp being D&D. You can call Paizo’s update of D&D 3e Pathfinder but it’s still D&D for all intents and purposes. Most even market off the fact that are still compatible and we’re designed for this such as Level Up. Furthermore denying the root D&D that these clones grew would strikes me as fairly egotistical. I don’t believe most 3pp do that.

On the other hand It was argued repeatedly that 3pp were essential to the survival and success of DnD. That was one of arguments used to portray WotC/Hasbro as ungrateful and greedy for wanting to revise the OGL back in January. If they are essential then how can they not benefit the parent company and the brand.

The rules might essentially be the same, but D&D is a brand, not a set of rules. Thus we have 5+ rule sets all with the same D&D name. You are not buying the D&D brand when you buy Level Up 5e or another “clone” nor are you directly giving any money to Hasbro.

I admit validity to your argument that buying any kind of 5e products might indirectly support Hasbro. I’m just not sure that the harm caused to independent publishers by refusing to buy all things 5e is worth the slight pinprick you might be giving Hasbro.