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D&D 5E Does/Should D&D Have the Player's Game Experience as a goal?

pemerton

Legend
You make magic items feel magical again, not by making boring +N items essentially unknown, but by not using boring items. Anyone can make a boring +2 Flaming Sword of Swiftness. It takes an actual DM, using the most important part of DM skill, caring about player enthusiasm, to create something like...

"As you turn the finely-wrought lacquer-and-nacre scabbard in your hand, you realize that this must be an Arkhosian High Blademaster's sword. Drawing it, you see the curved blade within, austere in its perfection. The handle bears gold and mythril embroidery of cranes, the cross-guard lilies in crimson and gold, implying this sword once belonged to someone of a cadet branch of the royal family. After a few minutes of trial and error, an Arkhosian word that loosely translates as 'for blood and honor' sets the sword alight, the color and intensity clearly marking it as dragon-fire. And that leads to a second realization: though its greatest magic has faded slightly, it retains some final mote of the Golden One's flame, still burning after all these centuries. Karthedaas of clan Nyax, you hold in your hands one of the few treasures of Lost Arkhosia that remain, dimmed but not dulled by the turning of the ages--and now it is yours, to bring honor to your name and your clan. Or perhaps that unquenched spark may bring forth Arkhosia's light again, at your hand? You are not the first to have such thoughts...but none had the strength, or tools, or allies you have at your disposal."

That is how you make a magic item wondrous. You make it matter. You give it weight and meaning.
that has essentially nothing to do with the rules of the game. You could say exactly the same thing about any system: design good adventures of different types, and suddenly any game can offer a "general experience."

Adventures need to make use of the game's rules, but adventure design as a whole is genuinely a separate topic from system design. Hence why using a very well-made system cannot protect you from making $#¡+ modules (just look at 4e's Keep on the Shadowfell or Pyramid of Shadows, which were both absolutely awful), while a system generally recognized for extremely flawed design does not prevent you from making excellent adventures (just look at 3e's Red Hand of Doom, or the numerous beloved APs for PF1e, which even its own creators admitted was too broken to continue developing for.)

If D&D is bouyed by adventure design, all that that says is that it's had authors who could write good adventures--and enough market share to make writing such adventures actually worthwhile.
I actually have a different view from that expressed in both quotes.

I personally don't find colourful description all that engaging. The way I make a magic item interesting is because of its power, or its connection to the PC's fictional position, or both. My 4e game features, unsurprisingly, lots of magic items. Some were purely utilitarian; but some had context and meaning, like the PCs' Thundercloud Tower that they first found in the Glacial Rift, and that they then (after having abandoned it in the Abyss) recovered from the Djinn and Yan-C-Bin. Some were close to PC-defining, like the Dwarven Fighter-Cleric's mordenkrad Overwhelm, the reforged Dwarven artefact Whelm.

My Torchbearer campaign hasn't featured many magic items, but the cursed Elfstone mattered not just because of its curse, but because of the way it linked together different characters and their convictions.

When it comes to adventures, I think adventures can be an important exemplar, or even constitutive, of system. Luke Crane made this point, some years ago now on a site that can no longer be found (by me at least) about B2 Keep on the Borderlands, which is a paradigm of classic D&D as presented by Moldvay. CoC is all about their adventures - the sequence of clues and events they precipitate, culminating in the sanity-blasting reveal.

And it tells you something about a system if adventures can't be written for it - eg In A Wicked Age.
 

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Oofta

Legend
As far as knowing what to give or what effect magic items will be I don't see how there can be any formula. I've run multiple groups, magic items make a difference but party makeup and tactical acumen is just as much a differentiator.

No matter what, encounter building is as much art as science and detailed tuning needs to be done group by group. There is no magic formula. But it should go without saying, more powerful magic leads to more powerful PCs. How much more is complicated, there are simply too many variables to account for both on the player and DM side of the fence.

But what this argument really comes down to is that I don't want a one true way of gaming. If there is an expectation of getting +X items at level Y, especially if it's player facing, then as a DM I'm pretty much forced to run the game that way whether they want to or not. If a DM loads down PCs with rare magic items so that they're glowing like Christmas trees, it should be fairly obvious that they're going to have to up the XP budget for their monsters. If they want a lower power campaign, they can do that too by not giving out much. I like that flexibility to change the feel of the game, I think it's a feature not a flaw.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
But...that has essentially nothing to do with the rules of the game. You could say exactly the same thing about any system: design good adventures of different types, and suddenly any game can offer a "general experience."

Adventures need to make use of the game's rules, but adventure design as a whole is genuinely a separate topic from system design. Hence why using a very well-made system cannot protect you from making $#¡+ modules (just look at 4e's Keep on the Shadowfell or Pyramid of Shadows, which were both absolutely awful), while a system generally recognized for extremely flawed design does not prevent you from making excellent adventures (just look at 3e's Red Hand of Doom, or the numerous beloved APs for PF1e, which even its own creators admitted was too broken to continue developing for.)

If D&D is bouyed by adventure design, all that that says is that it's had authors who could write good adventures--and enough market share to make writing such adventures actually worthwhile.
The PF1 era of adventure paths beg to differ with all of this. 🤷‍♂️
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
ARRRGGGH!

Can we please stop getting wrapped up in the example? The point is, by making things explicit in the rules, by making things transparent, we make things EASIER for the DM to run the game.

Is that really a controversial point?
It is because it often feels like a stealth attempt to add in things folks dont like. Naturally you are going to get resistance. Too may camps fighting for the way of things.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
To a point, yes.

If one went nuts, sure. But the game didn't break if your party had no* or nearly-no magic, nor did it break if your party had gone through a few classic modules and scooped all the rather-abundant loot from those. There was a wide "what/ how many magic items does the party have?" window within which the game worked fine; significantly wider than 3e I think.

Magic items were also much more easy come easy go in 1e, given that some bad luck with AoE saves could strip you clean in a hurry. 3e largely did away with this (I think if you rolled a nat. 1 vs AoE then one of your items had to save, or something like that), and 4e and 5e have no item destruction that I can recall.

* - unless the DM was cruel and threw in opponents that required magic weapons to hit. :)
I really don't think it required DMs being "cruel." Which is sort of the point. Some things expected magic items. Others didn't. Cruelty, ignorance, or simply lack of forethought can cause a "essentially no magic items" game to run aground on such a thing.

I'd quibble about the volatility piece (see below) but otherwise not a bad summary.

Not bad until the very last word - did you mean 2e? 3e doesn't follow this pattern in that it's quite reliably lethal, fairly gritty, and does rely on a certain amount of bookkeeping etc. (though you're recording different things than in 1e).
I meant 3e, but 2e isn't that far off either. I just find that, because 2e was pretty much backwards-compatible with 1e, it has far too much baked-in stuff for the "Gygaxian" experience. 3e was designed that way from the ground up; 2e was that way mostly because of the changing culture-of-play. (There are more specifics here, but I'm trying for more brevity.)

I disagree with the level of volatility you suggest in both 1e and 3e, if in "character status change" you include non-death bad things. Both 1e and 3e (sort of) had level drain, poison, and a host of other effects that 5e either lumps under hit point damage or eschews completely; and in this way I'd say both are quite volatile. The one difference with 5e (and 4e?) is that most of those effects can be shrugged off much faster than in 3e or earlier.
But those statuses stick to you. They have to be removed by a spell, generally speaking, or occasionally a potion or whatever. The status changes...once.

Things changing both rapidly and repeatedly is what I refer to as "volatility." 3e status doesn't really change repeatedly, particularly as you get into the higher levels, and the early levels (where they actually did do balance testing) are still pretty deadly, but both monsters and PCs don't have the resources yet for rapid change. Once they do, the power level has ratcheted up enough that it's, as mentioned, more 'rocket tag" than "volatility."

To use a very loose analogy, 1e (and to a lesser extent 2e, mostly due to culture-of-play as mentioned) is like a firefight between two sides where each side has a small number of very powerful grenades, and the ability to (attempt to) strategically predict where enemy soldiers will be; whoever prepares best wins. 3e starts out as a firefight where both sides have relatively ordinary guns with low ammo capacity, so things change relatively slowly, and grows until both sides have rapid-fire, high-capacity bazookas; whoever has initiative wins.

5e tries to thread the needle, reducing the top-end power but still giving out some rocket-propelled grenades, but also reducing the ability to predict the enemy first, but also leaving big gaps in defenses that can be exploited, so there's still elements of both sides of things.

Games like 4e, PF2e, and 13th Age, on the other hand, lean into a style of play where actual character death is pretty rare (not impossible; I've seen two deaths before 4th level in a 4e campaign), but the status of both individual players and the battle overall can swing wildly from "oh crap, this is bad" to "WE ARE THE KINGS OF COMBAT" to "bloody hell this isn't good" over the course of literally a single round, and where each individual character may go from top form, to barely surviving/bleeding out, to back in the action over the same span of time. By comparison, both "Gygaxian" and "Lancian" experiences are quite low in volatility--because once the initial salvo is done, you either already know the winner, or you're in for a slow slog. The one area of volatility 5e actually does have is often reviled: so-called "whack-a-mole" healing. Folks want statuses that linger, that keep you down for the count, not ones that quickly change from round to round or even turn to turn.

The difference between actual trench warfare (where progress was either lightning fast because the defensive lines collapsed completely, or glacially slow because they held strong) and a high-stakes street fight. Both have ambiguity, both have tension, but the former (generally) locks up all the tension in the first round or two, while the latter mostly spreads the tension out across 4+ rounds. Both are serious combat, but one is (generally) with an eye toward the combat theater, while the other is more with an eye to the combat field. (Hey, there's a non-judgmental alternative to "war vs. sport"!)

Also, I'd say 3e is mid-to-high lethality all the way through, right from 1st level.
I think culture-of-play may be involved here, too, but RAW you're probably right. Many folks used the "max HP at first level," and IIRC that was officially the rules of PF1e. That might be where my description is rooted (since I actually have more experience with PF1e than actual 3e/3.5e now.) If you stuck to rolled HP even at first level, then yeah, 3e could be quite deadly for the first 1-2 levels, and then got somewhat less so for levels 3-6ish, and then the rocket tag started to creep in, inflating the numbers again.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The PF1 era of adventure paths beg to differ with all of this. 🤷‍♂️
Howso...? I explicitly referenced them as an example of high-quality adventure paths, generally beloved by most players, which are attached to a system that, as stated, its own designers explicitly spelled out why they felt it was too broken to continue developing new content for it.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Howso...? I explicitly referenced them as an example of high-quality adventure paths, generally beloved by most players, which are attached to a system that, as stated, its own designers explicitly spelled out why they felt it was too broken to continue developing new content for it.
Cute. Ask a question and then preemptively crap on any possible answer. Sorry not this time.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I actually have a different view from that expressed in both quotes.

I personally don't find colourful description all that engaging. The way I make a magic item interesting is because of its power, or its connection to the PC's fictional position, or both. My 4e game features, unsurprisingly, lots of magic items. Some were purely utilitarian; but some had context and meaning, like the PCs' Thundercloud Tower that they first found in the Glacial Rift, and that they then (after having abandoned it in the Abyss) recovered from the Djinn and Yan-C-Bin. Some were close to PC-defining, like the Dwarven Fighter-Cleric's mordenkrad Overwhelm, the reforged Dwarven artefact Whelm.
The colorful description was my attempt to display what it looks like to make an item connect to a specific PC's fictional position. In this case, Karthedaas was meant to be understood as an ambitious dragonborn who might see this sword as a powerful symbol for others to rally to his cause. Perhaps he is of royal blood; perhaps he is simply ambitious, strong, and possessed of valuable allies. Either way, even if the sword itself were literally just a well-made sword that can do some fire damage, I have no doubt it would be meaningful.

Incidentally, the leather duster that acts like armor? That's actually an example from my own game. Or another, the Risha al-Ghurab, "Quills of the Raven." It doesn't really do much more damage, though it does have piercing (DW uses armor as DR, so piercing is bonus damage against things with armor). Instead, it has three key properties, all of which the player who got the item finds very useful:
  1. It has three feather-bladed knives bonded to the hilt, which can be thrown with the Volley move. If an enemy has been struck by one of these blades, they take more damage until the blade is removed. Any missing blades reappear on the sword after a few minutes, if they aren't collected directly.
  2. So long as it remains at your side and you are not standing in direct sunlight, unless someone is very specifically looking for a rapier, the weapon will go unnoticed by anyone the wielder does not consider an ally. If drawn, this effect is suppressed.
  3. Because it was wrought with air-genie magic, which interacts with the character's Rawuna (Bard) skills, wielding it permits Defy Danger with Charisma if the incoming danger could be deflected with a magical flourish (meaning, something like a boulder trap a la Raiders of the Lost Ark would not qualify, but an enemy's arrow in flight would, because how badass is that!)
All three of these effects have been quite useful to the player, who eagerly remembers their existence even after long stretches of not needing them (particularly the second). Of course, I also used colorful description, and the sword is strongly associated with (and originally taken from) the Zil al-Ghurab, the Raven-Shadows, an assassin-cult which this player has, over time, gone from "we gotta take these guys down" to "we gotta understand what messed these guys up so much" to "I can, and will, save them from the corruption afflicting them!" to being the extremely reluctant prophesied savior who will destroy them and make them stronger than ever. (Yes, I stole this straight-up from the Star Wars "Sith'ari" prophecies, and I legit don't care :p)

When it comes to adventures, I think adventures can be an important exemplar, or even constitutive, of system. Luke Crane made this point, some years ago now on a site that can no longer be found (by me at least) about B2 Keep on the Borderlands, which is a paradigm of classic D&D as presented by Moldvay. CoC is all about their adventures - the sequence of clues and events they precipitate, culminating in the sanity-blasting reveal.

And it tells you something about a system if adventures can't be written for it - eg In A Wicked Age.
I guess I just don't understand how the adventures can be constitutive of the system. A really good writer can do almost anything with almost any system. Heck, Zeitgeist was made for 4e, but ported to PF1e and (AIUI) now 5e--yet it's still fundamentally the same adventure. How can that square with the idea that the adventures themselves are constitutive of the system? If official conversions to many different systems are not only possible but effective, what does that say? It tells me that a quality adventure will, in general, be quality at least somewhat independently of what system it was written for.

Cute. Ask a question and then preemptively crap on any possible answer. Sorry not this time.
I legit have no idea what you're talking about. I presume you wanted to offer those things as a counter-example, but I literally used them in the very post you quoted as an example where a system openly recognized to be heavily flawed had excellent, widely-praised adventures written for it. How can that then be a rebuttal to the claim that adventure quality proves system quality?

Sometimes, a very well-crafted system will have excellent adventures written for it. For all its faults, AD&D1e was in fact pretty well-crafted, it's just absolutely terrible at explaining WHY it does what it does--and it, obviously, has numerous beloved adventures written for it. Sometimes, a terribly broken, flawed, exploitable mess of a system, like PF1e, has excellent APs written for it. Likewise, a terrible system can have terrible adventures, and a great system can have terrible adventures. There is no pattern here; system quality neither predicts, nor is predicted by, adventure quality. The two are mostly separate concerns.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Could that be because they're learning from/being mentored by someone who himself has no problem with kitbashing a system? ;)

I mean, it could be. But I think you imply that initiative largely comes from mentorship - as if new folks won't get ideas unless you give it to them. That's ... kind of bogus.

Necessity is the mother of invention, not mentorship.
 

pemerton

Legend
As far as knowing what to give or what effect magic items will be I don't see how there can be any formula. I've run multiple groups, magic items make a difference but party makeup and tactical acumen is just as much a differentiator.
To me - and I would expect to at least a good number of other RPGers - there's quite a big difference between a difference in player effectiveness that results from player skill, and one that results from GM-influenced aspects of PC build (that is, magic items and other components of PC build bestowed by the GM).

These are both components of player game experience, but I would expect a game to acknowledge the difference between them.
 

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