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Does Medium Armor Need a Buff?

MostlyDm

Explorer
Heavier armor is just plain better than medium armor, and it should be IMHO. I don't find this problematic at all, personally, but this is a matter of taste.

I haven't read the whole thread, but what is the purpose of buffing medium armor up, exactly? Or, put another way, if medium armor is as good as heavy armor, why have heavy armor at all? I think there is a reason that the armored tank and the barely-armored dodgy guy are both archetypes, but the guy in moderate armor isn't much of an archetype at all.

Just my 2 cp. If you find it problematic, by all means, carry on; but I really don't think all pcs are intended to have the same AC.

Bingo.

Medium armor is the easiest way to get pretty damn good AC. It doesn't take massively optimized dexterity. It doesn't take extensive martial training, deep pockets and above average strength. It's competitive at lower levels because it's supposed to be competitive at lower levels.

It gets the job done, and if you're reasonably quick it gets the job done pretty well.

If you're an Olympian-level acrobat, it's not for you. If you're a hulking warrior with a bucket of gold, it's not for you either.

But if you're a reasonably quick, reasonably tough warrior looking to make a name for himself, medium armor is perfect.

I think it's completely fine that most dedicated warriors will eventually migrate to heavier armor, or light or no armor (because they're so fast they want to fight unfettered, or because their abs are so strong they repel blades as easily as any half-plate.)

I don't really see anything in need of fixing here. I don't recall the medium armor mastery feat details, but if it's too underwhelming I'd suggest putting your fix there rather than in the armor itself. If someone wants to dedicate themselves to medium armor, that's fine, but I don't see a need for it to be better out of the gate.
 

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
The only thing I would change is making medium armor master a half feat, which allows you to upgrade your armor without losing a full stat bonus. If you favour stealth, medium armor master is a +2 bonus to AC and the natural upgrade of light armor.

I came here to say this.

IMHO the issue isn't Medium Armor itself, it's the lackluster Medium Armor Master feat which is not competitive with the other specific armor feats.
 

discosoc

First Post
I came here to say this.

IMHO the issue isn't Medium Armor itself, it's the lackluster Medium Armor Master feat which is not competitive with the other specific armor feats.

I found it to be pretty great for certain character types. Extra AC is nice, and the ability to fully sneak in scale or halfplate is nice. It's not the kind of feat for a character that's looking to focus on a single offensive stat, but it's a great way to round out the abilities of someone who wants a broader range of defenses and actions (good saves, good ac, good dex value, good ambush potential)not to mention it makes it easier to play with if you're group is using the optional encumbrance rules, or donning of armor.

And even if your GM doesn't think sleeping in heavy armor is an issue, he should still be taking stuff like that into consideration when it comes time to meeting that noble, or asking the shopkeep for information, etc (you probably stink and look like the murder hobo you are). That stuff doesn't require the rules to spell out the downsides; it just requires people to actually think about the game as more than a set of encounters with stat blocks.
 


discosoc

First Post
yes. the feat is ok on second thought... but +1 dex or str would be ok.
the max dex bonus of +3 only helps if you actually have a bonus of +3...

If your dex bonus is less than +3, then you're probably better off using a breastplate (no sneak penalty) and still a 16AC (assuming +2 dex mod).
 


MG.0

First Post
Nothing in the rules say that you can't sleep in heavy armor or you suffer a penalty to swim in heavy armor. Just saying, those are house rules. They're sensical house rules, I freely admit, but they aren't inherent parts of the system so they really shouldn't be part of a discussion of the system.
But the system isn't intended to be comprehensive, nor could it ever be. Reading the swimming rules in the PHB gives me the distinct impression that little thought was put into them beyond the movement of characters on a grid, unfortunately. One has to extrapolate from there to provide some sense of realism in the world, or you might as well just wargame. Any game that allowed characters in full plate to swim would be one I would walk out of, as it has nothing to offer me.
 

discosoc

First Post
But the system isn't intended to be comprehensive, nor could it ever be. Reading the swimming rules in the PHB gives me the distinct impression that little thought was put into them beyond the movement of characters on a grid, unfortunately. One has to extrapolate from there to provide some sense of realism in the world, or you might as well just wargame. Any game that allowed characters in full plate to swim would be one I would walk out of, as it has nothing to offer me.


Swimming in full plate would actually be easier than chain mail, and definitely easier than robes. Full plate was custom fitted and the weight was evenly distributed around the body via buckles, straps, and harnesses. It would probably rust easily though.

Anyway, didn't mean to sidetrack it and your point about the rules not meant to be comprehensive still stands. Just saying that certain tropes like how plate is handled aren't always as accurate as they seem.
 

MG.0

First Post
*facepalm*

This has gotten so far off topic it's ridiculous. It started from a tangential remark about how a character in heavy armor might still sometimes need a decent dexterity.

If you have a hallway with a hidden pit trap or "bottomless" pit or pit of lava, which were your own examples, and the adventurers MUST walk down that hallway in order to complete their mission-- that is a planned event. Like it or not, the moment you put that there you have planned to have the party do a save or die.

Who said it was hidden? I explicitly said I don't use save or die traps placed to catch unwary characters. That seems to be your hangup.

I'll give you an example, though I doubt you'll read it as you seem determined to misunderstand what I am saying. In a recent game I had a bottomless pit in the center of a dungeon room. On the opposite side was a golden statue with one arm palm upturned pointing at the party. Water ran forcefully from knee-high gratings around the edge and into the pit. Crossing recklessly would involve walking through rushing knee-high water on a slick stone ledge. Yes, that is a DEX save or die situation. Did I railroad the players into it? No. There were multiple ways to avoid the save. First, I knew there was a spellcaster with levitate. They could have crossed and tied a rope off allowing everyone to make the crossing without a save. They could also have found the hidden lever (on their side) which closes the grates and shuts off the supply of water. Finally they could devise a way to put a weight into the statue's hand, or merely pull it downward, either directly or with a thrown and weighted rope if they couldn't figure out a way across. As it turns out, the sorcerer in the group considered spider climb before using misty step (two alternatives I hadn't even considered) and pulled the statue's arm. Pulling the statue's arm closed a grating above the pit, allowing the water to flow harmlessly.

That is how it is done.


Sure, you could come up with some rationalization like "well, you should do a search check every single time you take a 5' step and poke everything tile you might step on with a 10' pole before taking a step or it is totally your fault because YOU put yourself in that situation!!" If you spend more time rolling search checks than you do anything else, you really have drained all enjoyment out of the game.

And let's say they do start doing that to pleasure you. "HA!! Spikes come out from the ceiling down on you! Save or die!! You said you were checking the floor. Its your own damn fault for putting yourself in this situation where you weren't checking the ceiling."

Sounds like you've had a bad DM at some point.

When the check the "walls" you make them specify left or right and if they choose the right wall, lava spurts out from the left one! Save or die!!

No, you put that damn pit there intending to make everyone roll a Dex save or die, you have planned to have one party member die. Just because they can't mind read you and know the action you predetermined was the right one to "avoid" the situation chose one of the other dozen possible actions is not "putting themselves in the situation". You are the one who put them there.

A really bad DM.

Same deal if they need to fight a golem or other large creature that cannot by pushed but can easily push them on a narrow bridge above such an "autodeath" area and the only way around this scenario is to give up on the mission that you NPC assigned them, go home and retire from adventuring. Saying "well, if they go ahead with this it is their own damn fault" doesn't fly-- YOU are the one who chose to set up the scenario in precisely such a way that you mathematically more or less guaranteed that at least one party member was going into that lava. You solely made the choice that the room would be shaped in that way and have that particular hazard combined with that particular enemy.

That is a planned event. You might not call it "railroading" simply because you gave them the option to quit and go home and let the town turn into zombies or let the dragon cult win, but it really is no better.

Good lord. A horrible DM.

Or worse, I am willing to bet you are the kind of person who if the players do a search check on a door and roll high, there is never a trap. But the one time they don't roll a search check or roll low, that's the time you are going to claim there is a save or die poison dart trap and if you get tired of them checking every door, then in the next one there is a small bug inside that will leap into their eyeball and burrow its way into their brain killing them if they fail their save.

Those are planned events and claiming that players are putting themselves in those situations and saying it is their fault is just bad rationalizing for your own actions.

Now you're just being insulting. I imagine you are one of these kinds of players:

DM: You stand before a small lake of bubbling lava. You can see a small island of rock about thirty feet from shore with a large glittering ruby floating above it.

You: I run across the lava and grab the gem.

DM: You are dead.

You: What? Why?!

DM:
Dude, you deliberately stepped...no...ran into lava.

You: But look how many hitpoints I have!

DM: Not any more.

You: What about my armor?!

DM: Why do you think that would make any difference at all?

You: You didn't even let me make a save! You're being unfair!

DM: Saves are for when you are trying to avoid something. You ran headlong into a lake of lava on purpose.

You: But...

DM: You are dead. What is everyone else doing?

Party (in unison): Not running into the lava!
 

MG.0

First Post
Swimming in full plate would actually be easier than chain mail, and definitely easier than robes. Full plate was custom fitted and the weight was evenly distributed around the body via buckles, straps, and harnesses. It would probably rust easily though.

Anyway, didn't mean to sidetrack it and your point about the rules not meant to be comprehensive still stands. Just saying that certain tropes like how plate is handled aren't always as accurate as they seem.

Point taken about tropes.

Minor nit...in this case it isn't about the fit or weight distribution, it's about density. Full plate is 65 pounds of dense metal. I don't know anyone who could tread water carrying that much. My rule of thumb is if you are carrying 20 + 10 * STR bonus pounds or more metal ...you will sink. Yes in reality robes are difficult to swim in, but they don't literally drag you under like metal does.

Edit: Typed 30 instead of 20.
 

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