Does darkvision see shadows?

[scrubkai]

I'm about to run my players through an area that is heavy on darkness type creatures.

I'm expecting the entire party to be using darkvision.....

So the question becomes, Can you see a shadow (the creature) using darkvision?
If it really is a shadow wouldn't darkvision just see right through it? It sees through standard shadows (the non monster variety) right?

What about the Shadow Mastiff's Shadow Blend ability. Does it work against darkvision?

Thanks guys.

 

[jaelis]

A shadow (the creature) is not the same as a shadow (the absence of light). There's no reason in the rules to think that a shadow would be invisible to darkvision.

The shadow mastiff ability would work against darkvision, because it doesn't reference a creature's ability to see it, just the actual light level present.

Darkvision would not prevent a shadowdancer from hiding in plain sight either.

 

[frankthedm]

So the question becomes, Can you see a shadow (the creature) using darkvision?

Yes

If it really is a shadow wouldn't darkvision just see right through it?

I say it *ought to*, but that is not something the rules call for. Shadow's 1d6 str damage is more than painfull enough

It sees through standard shadows (the non monster variety) right?

normal shadows really would not *be there* to darkvision.

What about the Shadow Mastiff's Shadow Blend ability. Does it work against darkvision?

Eh, it could be argued a few ways, but I say run it the same way you'll run a shadowdancer's HiPS ability.

 

[VanRichten]

Look at it this way. With Darkvision you can see in normal darkness as if there were light present except the fact you cannot discern color. It is just like having True Colorblindness. Your eyes do not recognize color, but you do see shades of darkness and shadows.

 

[Nifft]

My rule of thumb for abilities that aid perception is: they always add information.

Darkvision is a benefit, not a trade-off. Same for see invisibility -- you know if a dude is under an effect that would render him invisible, in addition to seeing him.

Cheers, -- N

 

[billd91]

The way I see it, creatures with darvision don't see shadows made by objects blocking light since they can see in complete darkness as if there were light but they can see the creatures known as shadows because they aren't merely the absence of light. They're actual creatures that happen to look much like shadows to normal-sighted people.
Think of it this way: can a normal person see it if you shine a light on it? If so, someone with darkvision can see it even when there is not light. Since shadows stand out in the light, they should be quite visible to creatures with darkvision.

I'd say that darkvision should negate the ability to hide in shadows since, to someone using darkvision, there are no shadows to provide concealment. Some other form of concealment must be present. In the SRD, under Vision and Light, it says:

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

I'd say that's enough to rule that shadow mastiffs can't claim complete concealment from a dwarf within 60 feet with shadow blend. Beyond 60 feet, and he's able to do so.

 

[jaelis]

I'd say that's enough to rule that shadow mastiffs can't claim complete concealment from a dwarf within 60 feet with shadow blend. Beyond 60 feet, and he's able to do so.

The shadow mastiff ability has nothing to do with hiding in the dark, since it works even in the area of a continual flame spell. It is invisible any time it is not in full daylight (or the effect of a daylight spell.) I don't see how being able to see in shadows has anything to do with it.

 

[billd91]

The shadow mastiff ability has nothing to do with hiding in the dark, since it works even in the area of a continual flame spell. It is invisible any time it is not in full daylight (or the effect of a daylight spell.) I don't see how being able to see in shadows has anything to do with it.

Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability. A daylight spell, however, will.

The shadow mastiff disappears into the shadows... which won't exist for any creature with darkvision and within 60 ft.

 

[jaelis]

I see... so you would rule that a shadow mastiff that was in the middle of a large, torchlit, empty room would be unable to use its shadow blend ability, since there is nothing around to cast a shadow?

My own read of it is that any form of illumination other than daylight is sufficiently dim to count as shadowy for the purpose of this ability. If the darkvision ability noted that it allowed you to see "as if in daylight," then I would probably say it would negate the ability too, but it doesn't.

 

[billd91]

I see... so you would rule that a shadow mastiff that was in the middle of a large, torchlit, empty room would be unable to use its shadow blend ability, since there is nothing around to cast a shadow?

My own read of it is that any form of illumination other than daylight is sufficiently dim to count as shadowy for the purpose of this ability. If the darkvision ability noted that it allowed you to see "as if in daylight," then I would probably say it would negate the ability too, but it doesn't.

If there's nothing in the room to cast a shadow, there's nothing to observe the shadow mastiff. The question is moot.

But I would agree that any light short of daylight (or daylight spell) is generally enough for it to be shadowy and the shadow mastiff can use its ability (and the rules under Vision and Light agree). But I would also say that creatures with darkvision within 60 feet of the shadow mastiff can still see the shadow mastiff since the shadows it uses to gain complete concealment do not exist for those creatures. The ability still works on creatures that don't have darkvision, just not the ones that do.