Do You Want Multiple Actions Per Turn or Not?

[Pickles JG]

Sometimes the point is the fluff, not the mechanics.

Well I was reponding to a post that said Claw Claw Bite is what Owlbears do which is entirely mechanical but I lost track of where I saw it I could buy into Owlbears being smart(ish) & evil, plotting the downfall of their mad wizard creators & the rest of humanoid kind. So I am on board with it being the fluff. I think I am railing against 3e or maybe early 4e where Owlbears became neutral & animal intellegence so just feathered bears.

I also don't like the art column that talks about Owlbears having colouration to match their environment. I want my Owlbears to be angry evil created things that do not have a natural enrivonment, but then I am a traditionalist at heart.

While fluff is an end in its own right the flavour can be greatly enhanced if the mechanics tie into that fluff. this is the issue some people have with "Dissociative Mechanics". Not me I love them & happily refluff mechanisms to fit my characters.

 

[Trance-Zg]

I would like to see:


Standard action(attack, combat maneuver, normal spellcasting, triggering magic items, using full defense, etc.)

Move action(move, shift 10ft, drink a potion, some spell/power usage, stand from prone, draw an item from your pockets, sheat a weapon, etc)

Minor action(shift 5ft, draw a weapon, some spell/power usage,)

Interrupt action(attack of opportunity, specialized triggered interrupts).

1-round action(comes into effect on the start of your next turn and you are considered to be doing action outside your initiative window and there for can be interrupted): special and powerfull spellcasting, special aimed snipershots or similar.


Now, for the full-attack and multicasting options:

As we are probably will have 10 levels of spells and 20 levels total(before epics) and no base attack bonus per level, and very flat attack bonus overall, I would suggest the following;

* at level 7 you can attack as MOVE ACTION with -3 penalty to attack roll.

* at level 15 you can attack as MINOR ACTION with -6 penalty to attack roll.

for spellcasters:

* at level 7 you can cast a spell 4 levels lower than your max level spell as a MOVE ACTION(at level 7 that would be the "cantrip" as level 4 spells are you highest).

* at level 15 you can cast a spell 8 levels lower than your max level spell as a MINOR ACTION(at level 15 that would be the "cantrip" as level 8 spells are you highest).

of course if you try this with spells that are faster than standard action their casting time is also reduced by 1 category. at lvl 7 0-lvl cantrip that is cast as move action normally can be cast as minor action, and minor action can be cast as free action(limit 1 free action spell per round).

 

[keterys]

[MENTION=82003]Trance-Zg[/MENTION] - all that would just encourage people not to move or take actions other than attack.

We need to avoid overloading the other "action types" if they even exist (and seems likely they won't, cause we're avoiding overloading them)

 

[Lanefan]

Rather than preventing the action from completing, could it not force a check, or apply a penalty to any attack roll required (or bonus to any saving throw required?). I could understand wanting the style of spellcasting you describe, though I don't think that guaranteed non-casting is really a viable way of reigning in magic-users. If you make them all or nothing then every fight will consist of as many readied attacks on the caster as possible and then the entire combat rules have to be constructed around this dynamic of stopping the Wizard vs. protecting them.

Or the caster - horrors! - has to take steps to make sure she's not going to get attacked: spend some time taking cover, or wait until all the enemies are engaged with someone else, or simply risk her spells aren't going to accomplish much other than to effectively keep occupied whoever is stopping her.

Combat casting and concentration checks were two *huge* design mistakes of 3e; it's no wonder casters got out of hand.

I guess it depends if you see an attack as the only swing of a sword you get to make that round. I prefer to see it as a general 'we're in melee, let's see if I get a hit whilst we constantly parry, dodge and move around'.

Agreed. However, now and then you're gonna get suckered...

In which case you shouldn't waste your round attacking someone who isn't really there for most of it.

I just dislike that readied actions can be 'gotcha' moments. If I charge the wizard and they teleport away, I don't get my attack and it feels pretty crappy. Especially if, say, I have movement left and might be able to charge on to the next target, or there's someone right next to the Wizard I could attack.

What's wrong with 'gotcha'? It's a perfectly viable tactic - which I bet your PCs are using more than you realize; and what's good for the PC is even better for the opposition.

Lanefan

 

[keterys]

After a _lot_ of in depth analysis of immediate interrupts, OAs that completely stuff turns, etc.

Umm, yeah, I also cast my vote for no gotchas that invalidate actions.

I _am_ okay for stating up front, though. Like... "The fighter engaged the caster and hit him. If you want to cast a spell next turn, it'll take a Con check DC 15"

 

[Lanefan]

Umm, yeah, I also cast my vote for no gotchas that invalidate actions.

I _am_ okay for stating up front, though. Like... "The fighter engaged the caster and hit him. If you want to cast a spell next turn, it'll take a Con check DC 15"

Blech!

If you've got someone hammering on your face you're not casting anything, period. You're dodging, ducking, parrying with whatever you've got (or flat-out running like hell) and hoping to whatever goddess you pray to that one of your erstwhile fighters can bail you out.

Even beyond that - DC 15??? A few levels in - at least in 3e - that's so close to automatic you might as well not bother rolling the die; and as this is something that shouldn't scale much at all with level it's a fine place for a roll-under mechanic, like under half your Int (or Dex, whichever).

Lan-"and they wonder why casters got unbalanced"-efan

 

[Oni]

I just dislike that readied actions can be 'gotcha' moments. If I charge the wizard and they teleport away, I don't get my attack and it feels pretty crappy. Especially if, say, I have movement left and might be able to charge on to the next target, or there's someone right next to the Wizard I could attack.

That's a hugely tactical part of the game. If someone correctly anticipates what their opponent will do, stakes their next action on it, and then successfully carries out their plan, that's smart. There should be consequences to being outwitted, if the person about to charge the wizard see he's not acting and is in fact waiting for something, the response should be to consider what the wizard is waiting for, not just charge anyway.

 

[keterys]

If you've got someone hammering on your face you're not casting anything, period.

That hasn't been the case in D&D for 12 years... and even before that it wasn't the case except during very slim windows.

It's also a concept that is remarkably uncommon nowadays, so I don't see such a sharp swing back happening.

I'm very much for making martial and magic closer, though. If you can't sell it to someone who is on board with you there, you're really going to be out of luck with almost anyone who was introduced to roleplaying games after AD&D.

Even beyond that - DC 15??? A few levels in - at least in 3e - that's so close to automatic you might as well not bother rolling the die

You may not have read the playtest packet? DC 15 is a minimum 50% chance failure for a wizard (and likely 55-65)... and that's that. No bonus for leveling. No automatic success. You're a wizard with a respectable 13 Con? 65% chance you can't make that check.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

That's a hugely tactical part of the game. If someone correctly anticipates what their opponent will do, stakes their next action on it, and then successfully carries out their plan, that's smart. There should be consequences to being outwitted, if the person about to charge the wizard see he's not acting and is in fact waiting for something, the response should be to consider what the wizard is waiting for, not just charge anyway.

It's only a tactical option because of stepped initiative. If you tried to run the combat in real-time, then the failed charge could be turned into something more - I mean, sure if the Wizard is off to the side by himself then you ought to consider that he'll vanish maybe. Frankly I'd prefer there not be this option though, because if there's a 'teleport away' spell available as a reaction then everything goes right back to combat being the focus - in fact if such a spell has a 'you're attacked' trigger then it's otherwise useless (modulo bag o' rats).

 

[Oni]

It's only a tactical option because of stepped initiative. If you tried to run the combat in real-time, then the failed charge could be turned into something more - I mean, sure if the Wizard is off to the side by himself then you ought to consider that he'll vanish maybe. Frankly I'd prefer there not be this option though, because if there's a 'teleport away' spell available as a reaction then everything goes right back to combat being the focus - in fact if such a spell has a 'you're attacked' trigger then it's otherwise useless (modulo bag o' rats).

1) You said readied action, not reaction, those are different.

2) If the skill-use/maneuver/casting time is just a generally listed as on reaction, that doesn't imply combat. Only when you start narrowing the trigger to things, like "you're attack", instead of "something happens" do you start running into the rules oddities you mention.