D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 262 53.0%
  • Nope

    Votes: 232 47.0%

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
However, I think we can both agree that there are a of of gamers who do need, or at least want, prompts for roleplaying. Especially people who are new to the hobby--and I think we can also agree that 5e was trying to be newbie-friendly.
Agreed from here, at least.
No, I saw the word particular. It could mean "one specific town, city, or community." But it doesn't say that--note that acolyte does say specific. Also, the phrase "DM's discretion" very strongly indicates that you can use this at any town, city, or community you want as long as the DM says its OK. Particular can mean that it can be used in any number of towns, cities, or communities that the DM specifies ahead of time. This latter one makes a great deal of sense, since after all you're smuggling things from Point A to Point B, and possibly Point C, D, and E as well. Why wouldn't you have safe houses in all of these points?
Once again we read the same words in different ways.

To me, reading that write-up tells me the feature only really works in one town, with "DM's discretion" meaning it's ultimately the DM who gets to determine which town it is.
 

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mamba

Legend
Once again we read the same words in different ways.
If I ever needed convincing that natural language is an awful way to clearly communicate something, then that has been decisively settled by this thread…

I am not saying make it all technical, that is a nuisance to read, but be very precise in how you write things, maybe even add a glossary that defines what commonly used terms mean
 

If I ever needed convincing that natural language is an awful way to clearly communicate something, then that has been decisively settled by this thread…

I am not saying make it all technical, that is a nuisance to read, but be very precise in how you write things, maybe even add a glossary that defines what commonly used terms mean
Well if people read ”particular” to mean ”any” I don’t think it’s anymore an issue with the language being vague…
 

Oofta

Legend
Supporter
Well if people read ”particular” to mean ”any” I don’t think it’s anymore an issue with the language being vague…
Add in local doesn't mean local to where your PC is based it means that the person you're meeting with must be local to wherever you are so you can meet with them.

People can run their games any way they want, and you don't even need the text to agree with you. But if you are motivated enough to interpret text to mean what you want it to there's always a way.
 

mamba

Legend
Well if people read ”particular” to mean ”any” I don’t think it’s anymore an issue with the language being vague…
agreed, there is a limit to it, but the criminal background could definitely have been clearer about its scope / what local means

if you are motivated enough to interpret text to mean what you want it to there's always a way.
that is true, I am more interested in avoiding misunderstandings with this
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
I think we even have a different understanding of what 'sensible' means, finding wild excuses to get it to work is not what I mean by that, so no. My primary goal is not to find a way to get it to work, with no consideration for anything else
Absolutely nothing I've said has been a "wild excuse." That's your misinterpretation of what I'm doing, because you want to stick so heavily to RAW.

no, as I said it needs to make sense and if you tell me that seeing someone for the first time and knowing 'hey, this is not only a shady guy who could be a messenger, but they also know how to reach my contact', then we are far beyond any kind of reason as far as I am concerned
Again, completely misinterpreting what I wrote.

A criminal is going to be able to determine that someone else is a criminal. The DM may tell the PC that they automatically recognize a tattoo, scar, or other mark that's definitely means criminal. Or the DM may require an Intelligence or Insight roll--perhaps with a low DC or with advantage--to see if they know what criminals from other lands are like or if they can spot the tells. The player then roleplays and/or uses skills to determine if this person could potentially act as a messenger and/or knows the contact.

Or--if the idea that they could get to their original contract is too "ridiculous"--this potential messenger could, with roleplay and/or skill rolls, be convinced to introduce the PC to someone who could eventually become a new contact. (There's literally nothing in the feature that says that the PC can only have a single contact, after all.)

In either of these cases, the DM may decide that non-criminals can't do any of the above (niche protection), or they can attempt to make criminal contacts, but it's harder or riskier.

See? Nothing automatic. No sudden knowledge at first sight. Instead, all it takes is for the DM to have the same level of judgement they have to use with practically every single other thing in the book.

("But the background indicates its automatic!" To that I say, so $!&% what? Use your own judgement to decide if something is automatic or not.)

As an example of something else requiring judgement, the charm person spell. The charmed person sees the caster as a "friendly acquaintance," and that's the only thing the spell's description says. So what, precisely, does that mean?
  • Some DMs will decide it means the charmed person will do anything for the caster that doesn't require too much effort or is dangerous.
  • Some DMs will decide it means the charmed person will smile and say 'hi,' but that's about it.
  • Some DMs will decide it means just like the charmed condition that dryads inflict and say that the charmed person will try to protect the caster and will believe everything they say and do what's asked of them.
  • Some DMs will go strictly by the book's definition of the condition and say that the charmed person will act exactly the same as before, but the caster just gets advantage on checks made to interact socially with them.
The DM has to use their judgement here, which will be based on a mixture of the DM's own social awareness and what will work best for the game--and that might mean that the spell will act differently at different times.

And so, with the backgrounds, they don't need to go into huge amounts of detail, because you've seen how many pages we've been arguing over those details. All they require is that you use your judgement for the details, but let them work. You wouldn't shut down charm person just because the PHB doesn't define "friendly acquaintance," so don't shut down the background because it doesn't define every possible way it can be used. The PCs are on another plane? Let them find someone who will cast sending for them if they can't already cast it themselves, or let them find a new contact and new messengers.

I understand that, I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying the criminal should be limited to one town, similar to the home temple? Are you saying the criminal should not be limited to an area because the temples can be in other places?
<Sigh> Not at all.

The acolyte can get healing for free at any temple of their faith (provided they supply the material components), but only at their home temple can they get the priests to help them in other ways, especially ways that may prove to be dangerous.

The criminal, presented in the same book, doesn't have any sort of similar limitation as to range, and in fact specifically says you can get in touch with your contact even at long distances.

The writers, unless they were grossly incompetent when it came to editing for consistency, didn't feel that criminals needed the same sort limitations that acolytes had, or feel they needed to update the criminal in errata or later printings.

As I said, your faith can very much also be a local one and have no temples outside say, a continent, let alone on other worlds.
Sure. And that is up to the DM to describe. But if the player made an acolyte of a god that wasn't some niche localized deity and the DM then tells them that their faith covers only a few square miles and they'll never be able to use that feature anywhere outside of that, the player would probably feel very cheated.

As to the DM being able to override the feature and make it more widely or less widely applicable, that is a given. There is nothing special about this feature that would require pointing this out for this one but not the others.
I would assume they were written by different people who had different assumptions or writing styles. One writer felt the need to specify things. The other writer took it as a given.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
if the table agrees that there is no problem, then there is no problem.
It’s unclear what you’re saying here. Are you saying there’s no problem with the feature working under the conditions I described in my post? If so, then you should agree that the “problem” being talked about for many pages now in this thread is not a problem with any particular background feature, but a problem with a hypothetical play group that’s not on the same page with respect to the established fiction.

When the DM points out that since you are in Ravenloft and do not know anyone here, that means you also do not know any messengers, and even if you did they could not leave Ravenloft, then there is…
It's unclear what the instance of play is you're describing or what you think the problem is. It's also unclear whether these things are being said in response to some action the player has declared or whether this is part of the DM's description of the environment. Or whether this is an effort to come to a consensus with the rest of the table about what the fiction entails after it has become clear that everyone isn't on the same page about what's going on. To me, the most glaring thing is how much the DM is telling the player what their character knows or doesn't know. When I DM, I do my best to avoid doing that because I think it's the player's job to describe what their character thinks (I.e. to roleplay their character).

The problem is that you start with the premise that there are no issues and then say ‘since there are no issues, I can do it’.
You are basically saying ‘if I ignore all the reasons for why my car cannot go 500 mph, then it should be able to go 500 mph’
I’ve asked for examples of these issues from actual gameplay, and no one has been able to provide any, so, yeah, I tend to think they don’t exist and that the "reasons" are just handwringing from posters who don’t like the 2014 background features because they don’t match up with their playstyle preferences. Otherwise, why would they argue against them so vehemently? I also don't know what the "it" is that's supposed to be analogous to going 500 mph. If it's using the background features as rules that work in games of D&D, then yes, I can do that and haven't heard any reasons that would make me think I can't.

of course it is the criminal, I have been talking about no other background for 200 pages ;)

I am not saying the messengers need to be established through gameplay,
That's not how I understood your response to me in this exchange up-thread (bold text added):
How exactly does my refutation of the idea ... that some of the features have an unstated prerequisite that it must be established at the table independently of the feature that the PC knows or is known by a specific person or people before the feature can be used by the player lead you to the erroneous conclusion that I "advocate for the feature always working"?
first of all, the feature does say that, there is nothing unstated about it,

I mean, how do you figure some fiction (people you know or who know you) can be "established at the table" without it being "established through gameplay"? To me, the two phrases I’ve enclosed in quotation marks are synonymous!

I am saying the feature says you know the messengers, you do not know anyone in Ravenloft, therefore no one in Ravenloft is one of the messengers that can get a message to your contact / one of the messengers your feature refers to
I’m not sure what sort of instance of play this describes. It sounds to me like one in which the player’s feature has been removed or suspended (by the DM?), at least temporarily. The feature says (in part) "you know the local messengers, corrupt caravan masters, and seedy sailors who can deliver messages for you." So if you don't "know" any people in Ravenloft who fit that description (for whatever accepted meaning of know you want to insert here), then, for the purpose of playing in Ravenloft, you don't have the feature.

so if the DM says 'you know no one in Ravenloft, so there are no messengers your feature refers to' that would be ok, because the player 'lacks the requisite fictional positioning' then?
Well, I can't tell from what you've written what the context of the DM's statement is. I mean, whether it's "ok" or not would be up to the individual group. Fictional positioning is only relevant if someone is making an action declaration, which I'm not sure has taken place in what you've described. But putting that to the side along with my objection to the DM telling the player what their character does or doesn't know, I think it might take this kind of out-of-game discussion for the sake of clarity at the table if the DM wants to suspend/remove the player's feature for the duration the game takes place in Ravenloft. The background features are, of course, subject to removal or revision by the DM just like all the other rules of the game, but I hardly think that amounts to a valid criticism of the features.
 
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mamba

Legend
Absolutely nothing I've said has been a "wild excuse." That's your misinterpretation of what I'm doing, because you want to stick so heavily to RAW.
apparently you also skip over the bits where I write that I do not care about RAW, I care about it making sense and being explainable...

Again, completely misinterpreting what I wrote.

A criminal is going to be able to determine that someone else is a criminal. The DM may tell the PC that they automatically recognize a tattoo, scar, or other mark that's definitely means criminal. Or the DM may require an Intelligence or Insight roll--perhaps with a low DC or with advantage--to see if they know what criminals from other lands are like or if they can spot the tells. The player then roleplays and/or uses skills to determine if this person could potentially act as a messenger and/or knows the contact.
none of this has anything to do with the feature, so yeah, if this was not about automatically recognizing this, then I do not understand why you brought it up

Or--if the idea that they could get to their original contract is too "ridiculous"--this potential messenger could, with roleplay and/or skill rolls, be convinced to introduce the PC to someone who could eventually become a new contact. (There's literally nothing in the feature that says that the PC can only have a single contact, after all.)
I never was opposed to that and frequently pointed that out as an option, this again has nothing to do with the feature however

The criminal, presented in the same book, doesn't have any sort of similar limitation as to range
yes they do, that is in the 'you know the local messengers' part...

that is just a shorter, and apparently ambiguous version of what the smuggler has as 'particular settlement' - but then you managed to twist that around too....

I would assume they were written by different people who had different assumptions or writing styles. One writer felt the need to specify things. The other writer took it as a given.
I agree to that when it comes to 'local' and 'particular ....' one left it open, the other was more prescriptive, when it comes to the DM part, I think you are simply completely wrong
 
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mamba

Legend
It’s unclear what you’re saying here.
I said I agree with what you wrote, not sure what is unclear about it

Are you saying there’s no problem with the feature working under the conditions I described in my post?
the conditions being that everyone at the table agrees? yes, in that case there is no problem. The problem is that none of what is being discussed here meets that premise, if everyone at the table were in agreement, then there would be no argument over how the feature worked...

If so, then you should agree that the “problem” being talked about for many pages now in this thread is not a problem with any particular background feature, but a problem with a hypothetical play group that’s not on the same page with respect to the established fiction.
I guess, but that is really not helping your case, the discussion will only ever happen if there is a disagreement, so I am not sure where you are going with any of this

The rest is just various 'it's unclear', 'that is not how I understood it', and 'I need as specific example to even discuss this', so I guess there is nothing to add
 

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