D&D 3E/3.5 Do racial hit dice count for epic status? (3.5)

[sukael]

Do racial hit dice count for epic status? I'm mainly asking this because of the dragons in the Draconomicon--those with racial hit dice over 20 keep a straight progression of BAB and saves instead of following the epic rules...

Other examples:
- The tarrasque
- Elder elementals (of any type)

 

[the Jester]

Racial levels never go to the epic progression, only class progressions (though I rule that a 15 HD monster only needs 6 levels to hit epic save & BAB- er, EAB- progressions).

 

[Prism]

In the 3.5 DMG (not in the SRD that I can find) it states that for monsters with character levels then use ECL to determine when the character goes epic. It gives an example of a 3HD (5 ECL) bugbear with 17 character levels being an epic character

This conflicts with the epic handbook IIRC and certainly doesn't work if a high ECL creature takes a level in a class and therefore suddenly becomes epic and would seemingly lose some BAB

Also, it doesn't allow for a non classed monster to ever become epic at all unless it takes a single level in a class - all a bit confused

 

[sukael]

Also, it doesn't allow for a non classed monster to ever become epic at all unless it takes a single level in a class - all a bit confused

Well, the Draconomicon has a specific note saying that Old or older dragons can take Epic feats, even if they don't have any class levels...

 

[Jdvn1]

In the 3.5 DMG (not in the SRD that I can find) it states that for monsters with character levels then use ECL to determine when the character goes epic. It gives an example of a 3HD (5 ECL) bugbear with 17 character levels being an epic character

This conflicts with the epic handbook IIRC and certainly doesn't work if a high ECL creature takes a level in a class and therefore suddenly becomes epic and would seemingly lose some BAB

Also, it doesn't allow for a non classed monster to ever become epic at all unless it takes a single level in a class - all a bit confused

The Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book anyway. It's probably best to go by ECL in most (if not all) cases.

Remember that ECL = HD + LA. Which means if there's no LA, just go by HD.

 

[sukael]

Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic ... or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.

 

[sukael]

Remember that ECL = racial HD + LA. Which means if there's no LA, just go by racial HD.

Actually, ECL = total HD + LA.

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

 

[Prism]

The Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book anyway. It's probably best to go by ECL in most (if not all) cases.

Remember that ECL = racial HD + LA. Which means if there's no LA, just go by racial HD.

The DMG epic section only talks about monsters with class levels and makes no mention of monsters without. I can't think of an example monster that can have class levels without a LA except for the Mummy Lord which should probably qualify for epic feats and BAB/save progression yet doesn't

If a monster has no LA and no class levels it cannot become epic as per the DMG yet as Sukael has pointed out there may be exceptions for certain monsters e.g dragons

 

[Prism]

Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic ... or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.

Well it seems that only dragons that have a total ECL of less than 20 are given an LA in the monster manual. Any of those that exceeded level 20 by taking classes would become epic. Dragons which would have a starting ECL of 20+ are not listed with a LA but this is because they are considered too high to play as characters, not because they can't take levels. So I would let them become epic too and also enforce the BAB/save penalty. However, later they would gain more racial hit dice from aging which would confuse the issue.


Old and older dragons without class levels seems fine to me too

 

[Goolpsy]

monsters aren't limited the same way as characters are.. if a dragon wihth 15 HD takes 6 class levels... the 6th will be Epic'd (i'd say) normally a monster isn't epic'd .. they dont use the epic rules and caps for attacks and such (i am certain at least the 3.0 monster manual said something about this, dunno about 3.5 though)
Monsters aren't a problem.. they are fighting machines.. give them a CR and they are ready to go.

Players on the other hand.. always need to be fixed...and limited in alot of ways.. to easen up gameplayer and such.So a PC with a 15 racial HD's and a LA of 6 etc.. is taking class levels.. they are concidered epic.. cause he is an epic character...