Difficulty understanding how new Overgods interface with a setting, LA/XP questions

[Deinos]

Alright, so first off, a question. Powers that grant templates, do not inflict level adjustment, correct? (Otherwise I am not sure what the point is)

Similarly, does increasing in deific level require XP and QP, or just QP? I would expect it does not, on account of the bit about rumored apertures to the 10th dimension that grant you Sidereal powers, but you never know. If it just requires QP, would you be brought up to the minimum XP for your new LA, or would you need to gain the minimum XP for your new level, and then level as normal from that point?

Now... First Ones. In the default cosmology, there are only six, one for each dimension. For a new First One to be created, do they have to hijack an existing dimension, or does ascension to First One level actually birth a second dimension of Entropy, of Spirit, or so forth within this cosmology?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Deinos!

Alright, so first off, a question. Powers that grant templates, do not inflict level adjustment, correct? (Otherwise I am not sure what the point is)

Correct. They are already 'paid' for by the power itself.

Similarly, does increasing in deific level require XP and QP, or just QP?

Just QP.

I would expect it does not, on account of the bit about rumored apertures to the 10th dimension that grant you Sidereal powers, but you never know. If it just requires QP, would you be brought up to the minimum XP for your new LA, or would you need to gain the minimum XP for your new level, and then level as normal from that point?

You add the ECL of the new template.

However, if the ECL of the template exceeds the characters Levels (or HD) then technically the character is broken in terms of balance. So they are not as powerful as they should be - hence the minimum suggested HD/Level threshold.

Now... First Ones. In the default cosmology, there are only six, one for each dimension. For a new First One to be created, do they have to hijack an existing dimension, or does ascension to First One level actually birth a second dimension of Entropy, of Spirit, or so forth within this cosmology?

I'd leave the specifics up to individual DMs. They could create a new dimension just by existing. Alabaster might create a dimension of swords for instance. Or you could replace the existing First One in some way. There are a number of possibilities.

 

[Deinos]

Hey Krust, thanks for the quick replies!

Huh, good stuff. Well, yeah... I realize they'd be underpowered, but there's at least one extreme minmaxer, and weaker PCs make it probably easier on the DM anyway. In particular, I think there's some potential in a campaign where PCs who've nabbed disproportionately more glory and resonance than is normal for their curve, and who are threatened by much older and experienced divine beings that nonetheless have less divine power than they do.

 

[Deinos]

3 questions and rambles

Not to be rude, but here are some more questions... many thanks in advance if these are answered.

Question 1: are the rules for leaving or creating your own universe left nebulous on account of it being DM's discretion as to whether it should be possible, or is there a specific way to do it? Say, could six (or however many) excess First Ones split off to form their own universe or what not?

Reason I ask is that it seems as if, otherwise, the party all reaching First One status would seem to be the absolute cap unless someone becomes happy to step down, PvP is initiated, they gestalt into one being, or just decide to selflessly allow the dude with Siphon to be the one to become a Time Lord.

The inbuilt cap isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering there aren't that many ways to make things interesting for time lord parties. Not that I expect many games will go past level 100 by honest means. And I think it may make for an interesting campaign end wherein either one party member goes off to become a time lord and the others retire, or you wind up with a weird as hell cosmology wherein you have 14 dimensions instead of 6.

Question 2: I noticed that the Craft domain lets you increase your "ECL" for purpose of crafting... should this be taken to mean that you believe ECL rather than caster level be used to determine how good of item you can make? It certainly strikes me as appropriate that forge-gods and smith-devils be able to match ordinary human spellcasters in terms of crafting.

Question 3: IH-Ascension states that to hit the 999 HD cap, you must be your own universe and stuff. Does this conflict with the HD of, say, orichalcum constructs, or should it just refer to divine manifestations and such?

Just rambling here: some calculations I did suggest that at the very least giving up on epic level advancement (or only shallow dippin) in favor of divinity seeking (which admittedly is not an option for all PCs) works for some character types... at least, it works for magic-focused characters, which was actually my primary concern, since usually spellcasters curl up into a ball and cry when level adjustment enters the picture.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Deinos!

Not to be rude, but here are some more questions... many thanks in advance if these are answered.

Nothing rude about asking questions.

Question 1: are the rules for leaving or creating your own universe left nebulous on account of it being DM's discretion as to whether it should be possible, or is there a specific way to do it?

It was never that high on my to do list. Though I did say that Neutonium Golems patrol those borders so that you don't interfere in Time Lord business.

Say, could six (or however many) excess First Ones split off to form their own universe or what not?

It seems to me they already are their own universe. If they all split together then they'd just form the same universe.

Reason I ask is that it seems as if, otherwise, the party all reaching First One status would seem to be the absolute cap unless someone becomes happy to step down, PvP is initiated, they gestalt into one being, or just decide to selflessly allow the dude with Siphon to be the one to become a Time Lord.

Well what you have to consider is when you get to First One rank - how do you progress beyond that? It seems to me you have to take on Time Lords and so forth. So if you are taking them on you could supplant them.

The inbuilt cap isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering there aren't that many ways to make things interesting for time lord parties. Not that I expect many games will go past level 100 by honest means. And I think it may make for an interesting campaign end wherein either one party member goes off to become a time lord and the others retire, or you wind up with a weird as hell cosmology wherein you have 14 dimensions instead of 6.

I'd never really thought anyone would seriously play at that level of power - of course I realise now if you create the rules someone, somewhere will play them.

Question 2: I noticed that the Craft domain lets you increase your "ECL" for purpose of crafting... should this be taken to mean that you believe ECL rather than caster level be used to determine how good of item you can make? It certainly strikes me as appropriate that forge-gods and smith-devils be able to match ordinary human spellcasters in terms of crafting.

I think templates (especially divine ones) should definately count towards crafting. I think you could argue it on a case for case basis (regarding which templates).

Question 3: IH-Ascension states that to hit the 999 HD cap, you must be your own universe and stuff. Does this conflict with the HD of, say, orichalcum constructs, or should it just refer to divine manifestations and such?

It does conflict with it although the real problem here is 3rd Edition. Its JUST simply not built for this amount of wear and tear.

Just rambling here: some calculations I did suggest that at the very least giving up on epic level advancement (or only shallow dippin) in favor of divinity seeking (which admittedly is not an option for all PCs) works for some character types... at least, it works for magic-focused characters, which was actually my primary concern, since usually spellcasters curl up into a ball and cry when level adjustment enters the picture.

I am sure I noted things like Spell Level should be based on ECL rather than level - it must be in the template text somewhere.

 

[Deinos]

Ahhh, thanks. So do you think constructs (as opposed to divine manifestations that exhibit construct traits) should be capped at 998 HD or just left as is?

Also, should clerical turning/rebuking use ECL as well?

The bit on caster level being based on ECL was hinted at in that creatures with integrated caster class levels in IH: B were stated to use their full hit dice or something for spell penetration, but wasn't sure what applied to PCs.

I suppose challenging Time Lords to become one yourself is a bit more epic than just some form of quintessence farming...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Deinos!

Ahhh, thanks. So do you think constructs (as opposed to divine manifestations that exhibit construct traits) should be capped at 998 HD or just left as is?

I think they should be lower HD than their creators.

Also, should clerical turning/rebuking use ECL as well?

If the template is relevant, yes.

The bit on caster level being based on ECL was hinted at in that creatures with integrated caster class levels in IH: B were stated to use their full hit dice or something for spell penetration, but wasn't sure what applied to PCs.

I couldn't remember where I had written something about it, just that I had.

I suppose challenging Time Lords to become one yourself is a bit more epic than just some form of quintessence farming...

Exactly.

Little bit pressed for time tonight (working) will answer other questions tomorrow.

 

[Deinos]

I think they should be lower HD than their creators.

Hmmmm... fair enough, I don't know if you've seen the Core RAW-legit triple iron golems in play but they're pretty abhorrent.

Anywho, thanks for your time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there!

Hmmmm... fair enough, I don't know if you've seen the Core RAW-legit triple iron golems in play but they're pretty abhorrent.

Sounds interesting - do you have a link?

Anywho, thanks for your time.

Happy to help.

 

[Deinos]

Hey UK! In core 3.5, it notes that you can apply advancement to a golem at the rate of 5000 GP per HD (whether its a flesh, iron, ironwyrm, whatever) and something like 20000 or 50000 per size category. This is adjustment to the MARKET PRICE, so even still, a typical wizard will probably be able to afford a triple iron golem the moment

And they have 54 hit dice, size huge, and an insane poison breath. One of my friends -- who I thought was a naive newbie -- made one for his first wizard char ever in 3e in a campaign I didn't myself participate in, for one of those DMs who think core 3e is balanced and its thems evil splatbooks that break stuff... he pretty much Batmanned the whole campaign using core only with no browsing on optimization forums or anything of the sort, and it went into the epic levels.