Different Games appeal to different play styles

[DrunkonDuty]

Forked from: Games that didn't survive first contact. . .

What follows is just an attempt thrash out an idea that is nagging away in the back of my head. So if you're not interested in that sort of thing best to tune out now.

(Dykstrav: I hope you don't mind me using large chunks of your posts as examples here. But they struck a chord.)

Wraith[/B] is a very character-driven game, and bluntly, players who sit on their hands if they aren't spoon-fed the plot won't enjoy it. Alot of the drama and satisfaction of the game relies on players selecting long-term and short-term goals for their characters and working towards them. Fighting against your own Shadow is really cool when done properly by a skilled storyteller, or it can be contrived and wooden when handled poorly. It really is a game where you have to actually design the characters and their backgrounds and have a skilled storyteller to pull it off.

Dykstrav also wrote:
This was extremely jarring to me--I came in from Vampire at first, and every other World of Darkness game I played focused more on social interaction than murdering monsters. The last straw on Werewolf for me was when I had a character object to killing some normal humans and the characters asked me why. I began reciting portions of the Litany, and the game ground to a halt for half an hour as the storyteller and I explained the Litany to the "experienced" Werewolf players (in a chronicle that had been going for almost four years). The players got huffy at me that I'd "resort to legal tactics to advance my agenda," convinced that I really didn't understand Werewolf at all because I didn'y just murder everything I came across.

The above has got me thinking about how different systems really seem to appeal to very different play styles.

Most of the Werewolf games I've heard about went much like the one described above. Not all. But most. I'm not at all familiar with WtO but it seems to have a very definite (and different) appeal.

Thing is, I'd have thought they would appeal in much the same way to much the same people. To whit: "I have super powers, I am so much better than all the Kine out there, time to kick arse and live out some infantile revenge fantasies." All the WoD games have this possibility, even though the systems themselves do try to encourage a much more reflective style of game.

I have seen and heard about a lot of games (not just WoD) that, er, have a greater facility to encourage the release of the Id. Sorry about the Freud but I'm trying to refrain from provocative language. I'm thinking that games that are closer to real life tend to get more of this Id release. eg: cyberpunk games tend to get more personal in their violence than, for instance, traditional fantasy games. Oh the body counts in the average DnD game will be MUCH higher than your average cyberpunk game. But the way in which the murder and mayhem is gone about differs greatly.

How about: certain games seem to appeal to those looking for a greater cathartic release than others. And not just a release of violence but also more of violent passions.

I have to go off to work, I will try to finish this later. But if anyone has managed to read this far and can see something to respond to I'd love to hear what you have to say. As I said at the start I'm just trying to form a concrete idea about this. Gathering data with the hope of seeing a pattern form.

yours in a tumultous state of mind,
Glen

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How about: certain games seem to appeal to those looking for a greater cathartic release than others. And not just a release of violence but also more of violent passions.

There is truth there.

Unlike some other posters I've seen around here, I don't believe that any RPG prevents or hinders roleplay.

I do believe, however, certain RPGs promote certain roleplay styles over other styles. Some games are designed to promote a very strong hack 'n slash mentality, others are very much about the social interactions between PCs and NPCs.

Likewise, some DMs and game groups do the same.

When a player's style- be it of the moment or by general preference- doesn't mesh with the presuppositions (inherent or group imposed) of the game in question, you can get some very jarring situations.

A group of which I was a late joiner had one player whose "combat monster" spent a LOT of time negotiating and interacting with NPCs...much to the chagrin of his fellow gamers. Despite his PCs mechanics, he spent more of his PC's "face time" talking rather than acting.

Had the game been more about courtly intrigue than dungeon delving, this might not have been a problem.

On the flipside, I ran a Supers game set in 1900. A couple of weeks in, one guy (whom I didn't know) wanted to join and made a Werewolf PC.

No problem, I thought...Werewolves fit the setting quite well.

However, his Werewolf was more like the modern hyperfast killing machines than the ones typical of literature set in similar periods (think Wolverine with a permanent Cocaine/PCP high). It just didn't fit with the setting.

Before I could actually address the problem, it resolved itself when I made a ruling in combat that he didn't particularly agree with. He felt it was arbitrary- it wasn't (the power was listed on the foe's sheet)- but I DID do a poor job of explaining the situation to him at the time. He left in a huff, and I never saw the guy again.

 

[Dykstrav]

(Dykstrav: I hope you don't mind me using large chunks of your posts as examples here. But they struck a chord.)

Not at all. I'm glad that I've started a discussion that might not turn into a flame war within five posts.

Seriously though, Werewolf chronicles just never really jibed with me. I can get into a savage horror setting where the characters fight for control over a dual existence within their own bodies and fight a ceaseless battle against a cosmic force of evil. What I can't get into is a game where it's basically a dungeon crawl set in a modern industrial complex with players bragging about their cool magic weapons and body counts. I can play a beer-and-pretzels D&D game for violence without consequences.

Garou society is violent, yes, but it's just one dimension of their existence and their struggles. What really disappointed me about Werewolf is all the potential for storytelling that was ignored. What would it be like to have a wolf under your skin that you can't always control? To be charged with saving people from their own self-destructive habits? To be seperate from wolf and man, but forbidden to love other Garou? I can imagine Werewolf as being really, really cool. There's so much drama and conflict built into the setting that it'd be difficult to keep it from being evocative.

But I sorta gave up on it when I tried playing, because I got the impression that the type of chronicle that I'd like to run wouldn't be enjoyed by the players I met. I had this idea for an old sept leader who wnated to abdicate his position, but required that his successor be accepted by the caern's spirits. I wanted to have this play out as a classic quest to earn the spirits favor combined with the constant politicking that would occur, similar to the Akira Kurosawa film Ran. But alas... I don't think that Shakespearean themes of loyalty and betrayal and wasted potential would interest many of those players.

 

[Oni]

This reminds me of when I was pretty new to gaming and had only played dnd. A friend was tell me about the different white wolf games and I commented that they all seemed pretty similar, even the titles. He in particularly liked Werewolf and I asked him what made it different from all the other ones. He told me it was a white wolf game for people that like hack and slash.

That impression of werewolf being kind of the less sophisticated WoD game has always kind of stuck with me. Though I haven't really played any of them.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think you're over-complicating "Different people have different tastes."

You also seem to be making a concerted effort to reconcile games that you have a personal disdain for with undesireable social traits (e.g., violence). At any rate, I don't think that the suggested correlation between White Wolf games (or "more realistic" games) and psychological disturbance or violence actually exists.

Indeed, if you're going to make such assertions and want them to be seriously considered, I think that something other than anecdotal observations need to be offered in their support (primarily because in 18 years of gaming, your own stated anecdotal experience is almost exactly the opposite of my own).

 

[Dykstrav]

You also seem to be making a concerted effort to reconcile games that you have a personal disdain for with undesireable social traits (e.g., violence).

That's part of the deal... I like most of the various White Wolf games, and I happen to think that Werewolf was really good on paper. I even dig lots of violence in a game, as long as it's there for a reason. Carrying on a doomed crusade against the Wyrm could be pretty cool, but there needs to be a context and some meaning for the events of the chronicle. It's not the violence that I despise, it's the randomness and fuzzy narrative that I've seen.

Indeed, if you're going to make such assertions and want them to be seriously considered, I think that something other than anecdotal observations need to be offered in their support (primarily because in 18 years of gaming, your own stated anecdotal experience is almost exactly the opposite of my own).

I'm not sure what else should be expected other than anecdotal observations, since I'm disussing my own experiences and representing them as such. I'm not in a position to perform an accurate survey or scientific study on the various experiences of Werewolf players. I'm not making personal attacks against anyone who enjoys the game. I'm not trying to prove a particular point for or against Werewolf as a game or its player base. All I'm doing is commiserating about a game that looks promising but I've never been able to get into.

The only point I'm trying to make is that my own experiences with trying to get into Werewolf haven't been stellar. I still manage to scratch the itch by incorporating the occasional Garou NPC in my other World of Darkness games. If you've had a great time with the game, I'd love to hear some of your anecdotes.

 

[Umbran]

Well, there's something to note here:

There's different games - a game is made up of (at least) rules and a setting. I note that the Werewolf example is an issue of setting - the Litany is a setting element, not a full game mechanic. Change the setting (basically, play the same rules in a different cmapaign world), and that issue falls away.

In general, I agree - different games appeal to different people, and for different reasons. Relaly good games are not limited to a single style of play. For example, I had not seen a real powergamer until I played White Wolf games, though many say those games are more "socially oriented" - White Wolf does good things, and their games are multifaceted, appealing to several different styles of play - often simultaneously.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

jdrakeh writes:
I think you're over-complicating "Different people have different tastes."

Well I do do the overthink. Guilty, but not repentant. (Oh and by the way: yes I am discussing MY experience and will continue to do so even AFTER the definitive in-depth sociological study of childhood emotional trauma and its effect on the appeal of varying gaming system to style elements gets published. I am making an observation. ie: discussing something I have observed. I did place a caveat at the head of the thread that you could have paid attention to. (This your lot though, I shall indulge in no more flaming.))

dykstrav writes:
... I don't think that Shakespearean themes of loyalty and betrayal and wasted potential would interest many of those players.

LOL. Er, no. Not in my experience either. Werewolf does seem to be the hack'n'slash for WoD. Which is a shame. As I mentioned, in their writing WoD games all encourage a very reflective style of game. One of the points the game developers seem to be making is that all these super powers merely separate you from humanity. It's this isolation that provides the poignancy in the game. And can also encourage the 'might makes right' thing that frequently rears its head. (it's easier to be violent against outsiders.) WoD is indeed a good system in that it can cater to both of these styles.

There's 2 themes that are developing for me here.

1: different games appeal to folks looking for a different level of cathartic release. At one end the beer and pretzel game. At the other end the full immersion, tears and screaming. The intensity axis if you will.

Now I agree with Danny (above) that any RPG can accomodate role playing. All it takes is a group that wants to play in a certain way and there you go. (Nothing stopping folks playing Toon with the intensity of Cthulu.) But games are made and marketed with a certain appeal in mind. And I think one of these is the level of cathartic release the gamer is looking for. Of course the level of catharsis that any one person wants want will vary (a lot) from one time to another. And I suspect that the games they feel like playing will vary with this. How much it correlates I can't say, I'm sure it's different for everyone.

But for myself:
good old DnD is for sitting around with mates who I don't get to see very often, chatting, rolling some dice and generally relaxing in good company. Maybe a few beers. Certainly some bad jokes. Game Intensity level: low.

VtM (OK I haven't played it in years but): More investment in the character and game. I can almost taste the rot in the world's soul.

But this is a generalisation even in so far as it refers to my own experience. I've had DnD games that had me screaming 'get it off me! kill it! kill it!' and CoC games where our PCs laughingly loaded up on big guns and went out to kill the monsters (we died but we had many laughs on the way.)

2. Games that more closely represent the real world have more appeal for the full immersion style of game.

A feeling that gets expressed a lot here on Enworld is: It's easier to immerse in a game world that is much more detailed. Something I certainly believe. Therefore those games that allow us to assume a lot real world into them are much easier to immerse in because they are so much more detailed. And maybe, because we are able to bring so much of our real life experience into them, maybe some unexpected things get packed in the baggage?

Danny: I think you bring up a good point about the group having it's own role in encouraging different styles. The peer pressure axis?

Thanks for the responses. Very much helping to clarify my mind.

Once again I must away to my place of employment. (ah well, at least they pay me for it.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Danny: I think you bring up a good point about the group having it's own role in encouraging different styles. The peer pressure axis?

Yes and no.

(I say that so many times in these threads, I ought to make a macro...)

There are 2 things going on.

There is a certain amount of peer pressure exerted by your fellow (non-GM) players. If they're all wanting to hack & slash over beer & pretzels, and you're busting out all of your thespianic chops, there's going to be some pressure on you to speed it up, draw your weapon and start with the killin'! By and large, this kind of pressure is relatively constant within a given group. Its rare for a bunch of hackers to suddenly ask for more time interacting with NPCs outside of combat..."More intrigue, please!" is not a likely request.

OTOH, GMs themselves encourage certain play styles...and it may vary from campaign to campaign. The guy who runs a stripped down dungeon crawl in D&D or that serial PC killer game Paranoia might also be able to give you a truly Machiavellian experience in a Shadowrun or WoD game. Or a Machiavellian game of D&D or Paranoia and stripped down killfests in Shadowrun and WoD...or Toon.

Its not so much peer pressure as campaign design. Call it...the GM Creativity Axis.

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

I will preface this by saying that I am an avid beer and pretzels gamer. I play for the express purpose of sitting down amongst friends and having a raucous good time. I'm not in it to build a story with the narrative depth of Eco or Dostoyevsky, nor am I there to win a Tony for a tear jerking performance. I just want to have fun.

Though I enjoy acting out personality quirks and idiosyncracies, I doubt that I will ever craft a truly 3 dimensional character (I can't help but laugh when I join a game where the DM wants a 10 page backstory for a 1st level character.) Likewise, though my group enjoys decent story to provide context to our rampant monster slaying, I doubt that there are any Nebula Awards in our future....and we're okay with this, because at the end of the gameday it's all about high flying action and adventure for us.

Yet on many gaming community forums it seems that there is an under-current of sneering disdain towards people who play for anything less than total immersion and inspired theatrical exhibition. I'm not saying that this is the prevalent attitude in the EN World community, but I have seen it in other places as have many of you I'm sure.

That being said, as a so-called "hack n' slash" gamer, I agree that almost any game can be molded into a bloodsoaked killfest for a more trigger happy playstyle, but on the whole I find that certain games allow for a more action driven table experience than others. However, in my opinion, it is an easier thing to add depth to a hack n' slasher game than it is to leech depth from a game like Call of Cthulu, or Ars Magica.