Warbringer
Explorer
Has anyone reverse engineered to building mechanics for 4e monsters?
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D&D 4E Did Anyone crack the 4e monster design code?
- Thread starter Warbringer
- Start date
Upper_Krust
Hero
Hey there! 
I cracked the hit point mechanic last week...
1 + Level, x role modifier*, + con score, x power level modifier**
*Brute 10hp
Soldier, Skirmisher 8hp
Controller, Lurker 6hp
e.g. Kobold Skirmisher (level 1)
2 x 8 + 11 = 27 hp
**For elite monsters double end total, for solo monsters quintiple end total
I cracked the hit point mechanic last week...
1 + Level, x role modifier*, + con score, x power level modifier**
*Brute 10hp
Soldier, Skirmisher 8hp
Controller, Lurker 6hp
e.g. Kobold Skirmisher (level 1)
2 x 8 + 11 = 27 hp
**For elite monsters double end total, for solo monsters quintiple end total
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Just from designer hints, it seems that each role has a target (range?) for attack, damage, and AC/defenses. With the goal that it advance as PC numbers advance to give the same feel - if (to make up numbers) a striker should have a 50-60% chance of hitting a PC*, that should be true of 1st level monsters vs. 1st level PCs, and 5th level monsters vs. 5th level PCs, etc.
I think I remember something (Mearls' blog?) that mentioned one monster having an attack that did d8 and another monster had two attacks doing d4 we equivilent.
*By PC, since they are also broken out by role, some PCs will go more and less then this amount. Defenders will almost always be harder to hit, etc.
So I don't think we're looking at a Savage Species build CR sort of thing, rather a find the differences between monsters of the same level but different roles and then just extract upwards/downwards by level. (Since it seems most things go up by 1/2 of level, that's probably the easiest part of the scaling.)
Cheers,
=Blue(23)
I think I remember something (Mearls' blog?) that mentioned one monster having an attack that did d8 and another monster had two attacks doing d4 we equivilent.
*By PC, since they are also broken out by role, some PCs will go more and less then this amount. Defenders will almost always be harder to hit, etc.
So I don't think we're looking at a Savage Species build CR sort of thing, rather a find the differences between monsters of the same level but different roles and then just extract upwards/downwards by level. (Since it seems most things go up by 1/2 of level, that's probably the easiest part of the scaling.)
Cheers,
=Blue(23)
Warbringer
Explorer
Upper_Krust said:Hey there!
I cracked the hit point mechanic last week...
1 + Level, x role modifier*, + con score, x power level modifier**
*Brute 10hp
Soldier, Skirmisher 8hp
Controller, Lurker 6hp
e.g. Kobold Skirmisher (level 1)
2 x 8 + 11 = 27 hp
**For elite monsters double end total, for solo monsters quintiple end total
Nice work
BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
I recently tried doing with with Monsters base Defenses by Role & Level (w/ special consideration given to Solo & Elites). I can say that I definately haven't cracked any "code" but there seems to be a pattern in there somewhere.
If you take the monsters level /2 + Stat bonus, it does not add up to its Defense-- it is usually too low. In some cases, I found for instance level 3 soldiers w/ all 12s for base defenses-- but then there was an exception, one with all 13s and a 14. I found level 7 creatues with bases of 10 for everything except an apparent 15 base for AC (seems that AC comes out of the same defensive guideline/pool as all the other defenses & can take from them).
Now, this is not a RULE-- but in general, a generic guide might look like this for, lets say, soldiers (who tend towards high defenses):
Level 1 Base Defenses = 11
Level 3 = 12
Level 6 = 13
Level 9 = 14
Level 12 = 15 (unless there is some "kicker" for being paragon)
Level 15 = 16
Level 18 = 17
Level 21 = 18
Now obviously, not all soldiers have across the board bases all the same, and some individuals are above or below this example... but they are close to it. A +1 here, and a -1 one can definitely change it up a bit.
So lets say we have a Level 10 Soldier w/ 16 in all stats. He'd have an average defense of 22 for everything. A level 6 Soldier has 17s on average with the same stats.
So let's take that level 6 soldier, and give him +1 Fort, +1 Ref, -2 Will, and +7 for armor and shield and we get: AC 24, Fort 18, Ref 18, Will 15 -- so it looks like there is no definate pattern... but there could be one... we just haven't figured it out (or at least the base line of it yet).
I haven't really been able to "decode" brutes yet, but their base / level is decidedly lower or they put most of it into AC (assuming it uses the same "pool"). A chart for them might look like this:
Level 1 Base 10
Level 5 Base 11
Level 8 Base 12
Level 11 Base 13
Level 15 Base 14
Level 18 Base 15
So a level 10 Brute w/ 16 in all stats has ave. def of 20. The Level 6 brute has ave. Def of 17 with all 16 stats. Of course, stats are likely to be higher than that (esp STR or CON)
If you take the monsters level /2 + Stat bonus, it does not add up to its Defense-- it is usually too low. In some cases, I found for instance level 3 soldiers w/ all 12s for base defenses-- but then there was an exception, one with all 13s and a 14. I found level 7 creatues with bases of 10 for everything except an apparent 15 base for AC (seems that AC comes out of the same defensive guideline/pool as all the other defenses & can take from them).
Now, this is not a RULE-- but in general, a generic guide might look like this for, lets say, soldiers (who tend towards high defenses):
Level 1 Base Defenses = 11
Level 3 = 12
Level 6 = 13
Level 9 = 14
Level 12 = 15 (unless there is some "kicker" for being paragon)
Level 15 = 16
Level 18 = 17
Level 21 = 18
Now obviously, not all soldiers have across the board bases all the same, and some individuals are above or below this example... but they are close to it. A +1 here, and a -1 one can definitely change it up a bit.
So lets say we have a Level 10 Soldier w/ 16 in all stats. He'd have an average defense of 22 for everything. A level 6 Soldier has 17s on average with the same stats.
So let's take that level 6 soldier, and give him +1 Fort, +1 Ref, -2 Will, and +7 for armor and shield and we get: AC 24, Fort 18, Ref 18, Will 15 -- so it looks like there is no definate pattern... but there could be one... we just haven't figured it out (or at least the base line of it yet).
I haven't really been able to "decode" brutes yet, but their base / level is decidedly lower or they put most of it into AC (assuming it uses the same "pool"). A chart for them might look like this:
Level 1 Base 10
Level 5 Base 11
Level 8 Base 12
Level 11 Base 13
Level 15 Base 14
Level 18 Base 15
So a level 10 Brute w/ 16 in all stats has ave. def of 20. The Level 6 brute has ave. Def of 17 with all 16 stats. Of course, stats are likely to be higher than that (esp STR or CON)
epochrpg said:
I think you will find this to be the standard for 4e monsters. According to the designers, very few things about monsters are "set in stone" by a formula. Instead, a range of values is used to provide a good challenge to a party of the appropriate level. Further, 4e monster design assumes that you don't need to rationalize how a monster gets these numbers, it just does.
For example, a kobold warrior has an AC 15. Maybe its natural armor, exceptional dodging, special training, magical enhanced reflexes that resulted from a freak accident, a mutated extra eye, an iron plate that was put in its skull, its ability to parry with weapon and its claws, or simply its innate coolness.
