Designing party encounters

[Theroc]

So, I'm looking at things, and I am wondering. According to the d20 encounter calculator, a CR3 creature and a Cr1 creature are a "Very Difficult" battle for 4 level 1 PC's, but if I used something like an Ankheg who can drag it's victim underground when hit... doesn't that become relatively impossible to save the party? I mean, at level one they don't really have a means to defend against that.

Is this an example of the CR system being wonky?

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Yes and no,

the idea is to a generalize the rules

they cant take every little detail into account, so this is why being DM is all that matters, you can make it a higher CR,
remember, the rules are loose, you can do what you want to suit you
a group of 4 1st level PCs could be decimated by something like a kobold with a little bad luck (or go luck for the kobold? yay for the little guy?)

the line is where you put it
you have power as DM
the rules are, well less of rules, more of ideas to help it move along

as for being pulled underground and lost forever, well forever is a long time, granted a PC probably cant hold their breath long enough to dig he or she free OR have the others find them, it still hits home, monsters are monsters, not push overs, nothing makes the game more fun then some nail-bitting action!

 

[Theroc]

Yes and no,

the idea is to a generalize the rules

they cant take every little detail into account, so this is why being DM is all that matters, you can make it a higher CR,
remember, the rules are loose, you can do what you want to suit you
a group of 4 1st level PCs could be decimated by something like a kobold with a little bad luck (or go luck for the kobold? yay for the little guy?)

the line is where you put it
you have power as DM
the rules are, well less of rules, more of ideas to help it move along

as for being pulled underground and lost forever, well forever is a long time, granted a PC probably cant hold their breath long enough to dig he or she free OR have the others find them, it still hits home, monsters are monsters, not push overs, nothing makes the game more fun then some nail-bitting action!

Haha, I was kinda worried about sending something like that out as the first thing the party fights. Feels like it might be... unfair. And looking at it... 2d6+7 PLUS 1d4 could hit for 23 damage. Most PC's won't have that much HP... I only know one way to get near that kind of HP and that'd be a Dwarven(Or Mongrel or Half-Orc maybe) Dragonborn Warblade or Crusader.

Thinking that might be something for a different level.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Yeah, the CR system is a little wonky-- and 1st level PCs are kind of fragile, too.

If you're looking for some alternative CRs, there's a document that someone here (Upper_Krust) put together in which he recalculates the CRs for all the monsters in the SRD. For the most part his CRs are higher than the official CRs-- sometimes by quite a bit. I think ankheg is a CR4 by his reckoning... so yeah a little much for a 1st level party.

It can be downloaded in this post. There's a LOT of very detailed analysis in it, but it's not too important to get into all that, except maybe the stuff on the "golden rule" and "silver rule". The important part-- the monster list-- starts on pg.9. (I thought there was a later version v5, but its not in that post.)

In any event, these CRs might be a better gauge for building encounters if you're really concerned about balance. YMMV.

 

[radmod]

What's funny to me is that in a world I've run at least five times the first encounter for the PCs is .... an ankheg!

Never had any real problem with it.

 

[Theroc]

Hm... well, I suppose in that case I'll try it out. Worst that happens is a TPKO (Special magic in the arena... )

 

[krupintupple]

i'd be very wary about this. the CR system isn't perfect, and does require the every critical eyeball of a human DM once in a while.

one solid bite and that ankheg just one-shotted a PC. same with an ogre with a club. or a 3rd level kineticist manifesting energy ball on the entire party - they all become charcoal briquettes and you suddenly find yourself trying to negotiate your way out of a coup d'etat from your fuming PCs!

also, totally backing that some monsters are far higher, or lower than their CR indicates. for instance, i've found that most "true" dragons are about 2 or 3 CR lower than they should be.

 

[Theroc]

i'd be very wary about this. the CR system isn't perfect, and does require the every critical eyeball of a human DM once in a while.

one solid bite and that ankheg just one-shotted a PC. same with an ogre with a club. or a 3rd level kineticist manifesting energy ball on the entire party - they all become charcoal briquettes and you suddenly find yourself trying to negotiate your way out of a coup d'etat from your fuming PCs!

also, totally backing that some monsters are far higher, or lower than their CR indicates. for instance, i've found that most "true" dragons are about 2 or 3 CR lower than they should be.

Well, it didn't seem many people were worried, but the party I am looking at I believe is an elf warlock, a barbarian, a goliath (adjusted for level 1) Dragon Shaman, and a fighter. I'm thinking that the warlock will be able to take the Ankheg out without too much trouble, if the others keep it occupied.

Granted, this will be my first encounter period... so... to protect the PC's from me misjudging things, they will not die. The setting is an arena with protective wards in place to prevent death... or at least any form of permanent death(no penalties, free resurrection).

 

[Jhaelen]

Is this an example of the CR system being wonky?

Not exactly. First: Against a level 1 party almost every encounter is dangerous. Even a bunch of orcs can easily wipe out a level 1 party. Monsters with a CR higher than 1 are usually sufficiently dangerous to kill a level 1 pc. That's not a problem of the CR system, though, it's a problem of the lethality of 3e at level 1.

What _is_ a problem of the CR system is the threat level of monsters with CR2 or lower. Imho, the CR rating only really starts to work properly with monsters of CR3 and above. But that's not relevant to your question, so I won't elaborate.