D&D and the rising pandemic

[Mikeythorn]

There’s whole books written about individualistic vs communalist if societies. The USA and Japan are often cited as the polar examples.

Pulitzer-prize winning historian David Hackett-Fischer wrote a wonderful book called “Fairness and Freedom” about how differences in the way New Zealand and the US were settled led to very different ethical outlooks. One of the central theses is that everyone regards both fairness and freedom as important, but that when those two principles come into conflict (and the pandemic is providing some great examples of that) then societies generally choose one as being the most important. He examines why many in the US tend to choose freedom, while many in NZ choose fairness. His rationales are truly fascinating, and certainly had the ring of truth to them from my perspective (as a New Zealander who has spent time in the US).

For example, one of his rationales is the landscape. If you were a settler in the US and you had a failing out with other people, you could just head a bit further west. If you were a settler in New Zealand you were part of a fairly homogenous community (Scots in Dunedin, English in Wellington, Irish in Auckland) locked into one location by mountains or the sea, so couldn’t afford to fall out with anybody - instead you had no choice but to be part of the community.

 

[Umbran]

Pulitzer-prize winning historian David Hackett-Fischer wrote a wonderful book called “Fairness and Freedom” about how differences in the way New Zealand and the US were settled led to very different ethical outlooks.

Yes, but, that seems to have been published in 2012. I think the behavior of many in the US is more dominated by recent deliberate politics than general philosophies. The politics might be taking advantage of the philosophy, but we'd probably have had much less of an issue without the politics.

 

[billd91]

Yes, but, that seems to have been published in 2012. I think the behavior of many in the US is more dominated by recent deliberate politics than general philosophies. The politics might be taking advantage of the philosophy, but we'd probably have had much less of an issue without the politics.

Maybe? But the politics reflect differences in the broader American society, not just partisanship, that were around in 2012 as well.
Moreover, people being anti-mask mandates isn’t new. They cropped up in the 1918 influenza pandemic too.

 

[CleverNickName]

The effects that politics (and political affiliation) have had on this pandemic cannot be overstated in America.

I had an argument with my brother this weekend about the Covid-19 vaccines. "They need to stop calling it a 'vaccine'," he said. "Vaccines cure an illness, like measles and smallpox, and (the Covid-19 vaccine) doesn't cure anything! They need to start calling it a 'shot,' like they do for the flu shot every year, because it's giving people the wrong impression." I tried to explain how vaccines work, and how Covid-19 is different from influenza or measles, but he was having none of it. All of his sources were to the contrary.

This is a real argument that I had with an intelligent, educated, close family relative. We grew up in the same household, went to the same school. The biggest difference between us is political: he is a Conservative and I'm not. Unfortunately, that distinction makes a huge difference in the types of information he is exposed to, the "experts" he is willing to listen to, and the advice he is encouraged to follow.

 

[Mikeythorn]

Yes, but, that seems to have been published in 2012. I think the behavior of many in the US is more dominated by recent deliberate politics than general philosophies. The politics might be taking advantage of the philosophy, but we'd probably have had much less of an issue without the politics.

But where did those politics come from? I think the points made in the book are still relevant today, as current politics seems to be amplifying philosophical viewpoints that were already deeply baked in 100 years and more ago. Eg, many modern views around gun ownership seem to be an evolution of much older ideas.

 

[Umbran]

But where did those politics come from?

So, I can't really answer this on these boards. But I don't expect the politics originated in an honest expression of the philosophy. And that's all I'll say about that.

 

[Mikeythorn]

So, I can't really answer this on these boards. But I don't expect the politics originated in an honest expression of the philosophy. And that's all I'll say about that.

EDIT: [Example using Nazis deleted]

EDIT: and in a feeble attempt to make this relevant to the thread, I think some of the current anti-vax sentiment may well have its root in mistrust of government and authority - which is also something that can be traced to earlier roots.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I had an argument with my brother this weekend about the Covid-19 vaccines. "They need to stop calling it a 'vaccine'," he said. "Vaccines cure an illness, like measles and smallpox, and (the Covid-19 vaccine) doesn't cure anything! They need to start calling it a 'shot,' like they do for the flu shot every year, because it's giving people the wrong impression." I tried to explain how vaccines work, and how Covid-19 is different from influenza or measles, but he was having none of it. All of his sources were to the contrary.

FWIW, all vaccines have breakthrough cases.

 

[Ryujin]

The effects that politics (and political affiliation) have had on this pandemic cannot be overstated in America.

I had an argument with my brother this weekend about the Covid-19 vaccines. "They need to stop calling it a 'vaccine'," he said. "Vaccines cure an illness, like measles and smallpox, and (the Covid-19 vaccine) doesn't cure anything! They need to start calling it a 'shot,' like they do for the flu shot every year, because it's giving people the wrong impression." I tried to explain how vaccines work, and how Covid-19 is different from influenza or measles, but he was having none of it. All of his sources were to the contrary.

This is a real argument that I had with an intelligent, educated, close family relative. We grew up in the same household, went to the same school. The biggest difference between us is political: he is a Conservative and I'm not. Unfortunately, that distinction makes a huge difference in the types of information he is exposed to, the "experts" he is willing to listen to, and the advice he is encouraged to follow.

The really sad thing is that those "alternate sources" (see also "alternate facts") exist. I had a little disagreement with some otherwise intelligent people who cited sources stating that the partial spike protein used in the mRNA vaccines reproduces in the body, causing clotting, "... because that's how it works." I just put down my 'knife' and backed away slowly.

 

[Ryujin]

FWIW, all vaccines have breakthrough cases.

Some years back I had a debate with an anti-vaxxer who claimed to be a virologist. He cited a case in Quebec in which the entire population of a town was vaccinated against measles (fully 100% coverage), however, there was a measles outbreak among the vaccinated. It was a town of a few thousand and there were something like 20-30 cases. Yup, sounds about right, but he was using it to claim that vaccines aren't effective.