QuaziquestGM
First Post
for complexity, try all the possible permutations on a turning check.
Or
setting off a Morts disjuction in a BBEG Wizard's keep.
Or
setting off a Morts disjuction in a BBEG Wizard's keep.
Complexity of an Attack: examples?
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Enlarge Person gives me headaches, and as a wizard I never prep it.
I don't like that it doesn't give you the full benefits/penalties for increasing one size category*, but the size increase means that (with a two-handed weapon) its damage increases and then the Strength bonus increases, and it might increase even more than "expected" because of the +1.5 times. IME, players rarely keep track of where exactly they're getting their damage bonuses from...
* Not that it would be a balanced 1st-level spell if it did! (Also I hate "Person" spells.)
I don't like that it doesn't give you the full benefits/penalties for increasing one size category*, but the size increase means that (with a two-handed weapon) its damage increases and then the Strength bonus increases, and it might increase even more than "expected" because of the +1.5 times. IME, players rarely keep track of where exactly they're getting their damage bonuses from...
* Not that it would be a balanced 1st-level spell if it did! (Also I hate "Person" spells.)
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
My example is simple:
Paladin 9
+1 Rapier
Improved Critical: Rapier
Smite Evil
Divine Might
That does not look bad, right?
Now that +1 Rapier is really +1 Evil Outsider Bane -- adds in +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2d6 damage...some of the time. I many need to ask the DM if this is both an outsider and evil before I have a final answer.
I get a lot of threats, but I may or may not need to confirm the threat due to Blessed Weapon. Sometimes have to ask the DM whether the target is evil.
I can cast Bull's Strength (sometimes from scroll), which adds +2 to hit, +2 damage.
I can cast Eagle's Spendor (sometimes from scroll), which add +1 the the Divine Might (and I must keep careful track of turn uses here) and increases the uses by 1/day. My Smite Evil gains another +1 to hit. (I have a +2 Cha item.)
Sometimes I cast Divine Favor from a wand, for +1 to hit and +1 damage.
If I am fighting from horseback, I get another +1 to hit against Medium or smaller targets.
I often charge for +2 to hit, -2 to AC.
By my count there are 15 minor tweaks to take into account, each dependent on circumstances. And I have not even considered Bless, Prayer, Haste.
Not that would not be quite so bad, except I also fight from horseback with a lance. The two-handed weapon and special mechanics of a lance charge make a number of these numeric tweaks similar but not quite the same.
This is a simple Core example.
Paladin 9
+1 Rapier
Improved Critical: Rapier
Smite Evil
Divine Might
That does not look bad, right?
Now that +1 Rapier is really +1 Evil Outsider Bane -- adds in +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2d6 damage...some of the time. I many need to ask the DM if this is both an outsider and evil before I have a final answer.
I get a lot of threats, but I may or may not need to confirm the threat due to Blessed Weapon. Sometimes have to ask the DM whether the target is evil.
I can cast Bull's Strength (sometimes from scroll), which adds +2 to hit, +2 damage.
I can cast Eagle's Spendor (sometimes from scroll), which add +1 the the Divine Might (and I must keep careful track of turn uses here) and increases the uses by 1/day. My Smite Evil gains another +1 to hit. (I have a +2 Cha item.)
Sometimes I cast Divine Favor from a wand, for +1 to hit and +1 damage.
If I am fighting from horseback, I get another +1 to hit against Medium or smaller targets.
I often charge for +2 to hit, -2 to AC.
By my count there are 15 minor tweaks to take into account, each dependent on circumstances. And I have not even considered Bless, Prayer, Haste.
Not that would not be quite so bad, except I also fight from horseback with a lance. The two-handed weapon and special mechanics of a lance charge make a number of these numeric tweaks similar but not quite the same.
This is a simple Core example.
Nathal
Explorer
The Grackle said:
This is a good example of why I never minded being a player, but as a DM trying to keep up with dozens of opponents gets taxing. It was harder to "fudge" NPCS and monsters compared to older versions, at least if I cared to balance opponents against PC skills and powers.
An example from the last AoW session. A buffed 19th level swordsage attacking Dragotha with greater insightful strike, while in leaping dragon stance:
BAB +14
Str +6
Enhancement bonus +5
Weapon Focus +1
Martial discipline enchantment +1
------
Total +27
This is precalculated, so that's the easy bit. Then add in:
Competence bonus (ioun stone) +1
Using a stance from Tiger Claw (weapon martial discipline bonus) +2
Acrobatic Strike (PHB2 feat, +4 if you use Tumble to avoid AoO) +4
Greater heroism +4
Haste +1
Insight bonus (from artifact) +20
------
Total +59
... dammit! Forgot about the ioun stone!
BAB +14
Str +6
Enhancement bonus +5
Weapon Focus +1
Martial discipline enchantment +1
------
Total +27
This is precalculated, so that's the easy bit. Then add in:
Competence bonus (ioun stone) +1
Using a stance from Tiger Claw (weapon martial discipline bonus) +2
Acrobatic Strike (PHB2 feat, +4 if you use Tumble to avoid AoO) +4
Greater heroism +4
Haste +1
Insight bonus (from artifact) +20
------
Total +59
... dammit! Forgot about the ioun stone!
Nathal said:
Nathal, there's no problem with you seeking a bit of help on articles around here. But, for sake of courtesy and openness, in the future could you please mention that you're writing an article up front? Folks hereabouts sometimes get a little touchy when someone does a "bait and switch" on their purpose for asking a question. It has, on occasion, started nasty arguments.
If you're up front about it, folks will still be perfectly willing to help you out, but you won't have to worry about anyone getting annoyed or questioning your motives.
Nathal
Explorer
Umbran said:
That's not a problem...if I think of incorporating a thread into an article in the first place. The topic struck me as part of a correspondence/debate I was having with a friend, and I was curious to see Enworlder's responses. After I read the thread, I realized it would be perfect thing to mention in my free article. That's why I asked for permission to quote. Either way, I see your point, and I apologize if I ruffled any feathers.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Here's where it gets me:
PC: I grab his head and slam it into the table!
(Step 1: are you in reach?)
(Step 1a: Do you win initiative?)
(Step 2: You need to make a touch attack to grab him. Because he has a weapon, this provokes an attack of opportunity)
(Step 3: He makes an attack of opportunity, hits, and deals damage. Does this negate your attempt to touch him, or can you still do it?)
(Step 4: Assuming you can, you make your touch attack to grab him.)
(Step 5: Make opposed Grapple checks to see if you can grapple with him)
(Step 6: Assuming you win, move into his space. This provokes attacks of opportunity from his buddies)
(Step 7: Resolve his buddie's attacks of opportunity. One or two hit. You've taken some damage grabbing him)
(Step 8: Are you still within the reach of the table?)
(Step 9: Now that you're grappling, what does this fall under? You're not doing unarmed damage, it's more like you're controlling his body, so you need to achieve a pin. You can't do that unless you have more than one attack/round)
(Step 10: You don't)
(Step 11: He takes an an action. He tries to undo your grapple. If he does, to grab his head again, you'd need to go through steps 1-9 again)
(Step 12: He doesn't. Your turn. You need to make another Grapple check to pin him)
(Step 13: You do. Now you slam his head against the table)
(Step 14: How much damage does this do?)
....the entire action should take about one second. Grab, slam, laugh. But it doesn't. It takes several rounds of combat and more than 5 d20 rolls. All for what I'd rule is 1d3+STR damage from slamming someone's head into a table.
The complexity of attack doesn't become much of an issue until it stops me from actually envisioning what my character does. It becomes a barrier to fantasy, not an aide.
PC: I grab his head and slam it into the table!
(Step 1: are you in reach?)
(Step 1a: Do you win initiative?)
(Step 2: You need to make a touch attack to grab him. Because he has a weapon, this provokes an attack of opportunity)
(Step 3: He makes an attack of opportunity, hits, and deals damage. Does this negate your attempt to touch him, or can you still do it?)
(Step 4: Assuming you can, you make your touch attack to grab him.)
(Step 5: Make opposed Grapple checks to see if you can grapple with him)
(Step 6: Assuming you win, move into his space. This provokes attacks of opportunity from his buddies)
(Step 7: Resolve his buddie's attacks of opportunity. One or two hit. You've taken some damage grabbing him)
(Step 8: Are you still within the reach of the table?)
(Step 9: Now that you're grappling, what does this fall under? You're not doing unarmed damage, it's more like you're controlling his body, so you need to achieve a pin. You can't do that unless you have more than one attack/round)
(Step 10: You don't)
(Step 11: He takes an an action. He tries to undo your grapple. If he does, to grab his head again, you'd need to go through steps 1-9 again)
(Step 12: He doesn't. Your turn. You need to make another Grapple check to pin him)
(Step 13: You do. Now you slam his head against the table)
(Step 14: How much damage does this do?)
....the entire action should take about one second. Grab, slam, laugh. But it doesn't. It takes several rounds of combat and more than 5 d20 rolls. All for what I'd rule is 1d3+STR damage from slamming someone's head into a table.
The complexity of attack doesn't become much of an issue until it stops me from actually envisioning what my character does. It becomes a barrier to fantasy, not an aide.
