Complete Disagreement With Mike on Monsters (see post #205)

[Pale]

How much will this hamstring DMs, though? Sorry guys, I still love Player and Monster stats being the same... one system to rule them all. The old ways are what produced such things as "The Ogre Mage" (yes, I know that was also in 3.5, but more out of tradition than anything else, I think). Am I going to have to have a seperate "monster" if I want "Fighter Kobolds", "Stealthy Kobolds" and "Magic Casting Kobolds"? Meh, just let me add character classes to them.

Also, looking at my large collection of monster compilations, I fail to see where designers were overly stifled by the 3.5 system.

 

[Agamon]

Yeah, this was certainly one of those cool in theory, but not so much in practice ideas. I don't think they'll go back to a troll being 6+6 HD and treasure type D, and if you don't like it, sorry, that's the way it is, but a different mechanic for improving monsters (and NPCs) would be good.

 

[Pale]

I think this direction is awesome, as I can't stand monster PCs!

You know, just because monsters have PC block stats, doesn't mean you have to allow it in your game. And all-human games are pretty interesting, ya ask me.

I find "I don't like it, so no one can do it!" stances pretty selfish, however.

 

[Agamon]

I find "I don't like it, so no one can do it!" stances pretty selfish, however.

It's not being changed because Reaper Steve doesn't like it....

 

[Nahat Anoj]

As long as the 4e monster rules make the game easier to run and allow for more creativity, then I'm okay with them.

 

[Henry]

Also, looking at my large collection of monster compilations, I fail to see where designers were overly stifled by the 3.5 system.

It's not the designers that are stifled, it's often times the DMs running their weekly games that are "stifled" (inundated is a better description). A stat block can be a page long in theory, with no harm done -- but in practice, the DM who just wants to open the page and run the monster as printed runs into digging into the stat block to figure the creature out enough to use good strategy. Even the "simplified" stat blocks still leave me digging around for a minute to get the correct info - only in 3E did I start to have that problem, and in earlier games I could run a monster on the fly.

I've often said it before and still maintain it -- DMs and players need two separate sets of rules, because they have two different goals. The player's goal is to manage one character to the pursuit of fun. The DM's goal is to manage dozens of characters as well as plot elements to the pursuit of fun. As long as the mechanics meet the two sides in the middle, then I have no problem with DMs not having to manage NPCs the way PCs are managed. If 4E can successfully pull it off, then I'm interested.

 

[WayneLigon]

This is probably the only thing I've heard about 4E that I'm ambivilant about simply because of one of the big things I despised about 1E/2E: monsters and NPCs having special powers and abilities not related to their make-up that I as a PC could never have.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm in complete agreement with Mouseferatu about this. While on an intellectual level it's tidier to have everything work the same way, in practice it leads to overcomplication, unneccessary rigidity, and odd side effects.

Note, I'm not saying you're wrong.

But shouldn't the whole game be made easier to run instead of dumbing down certain parts of it? I know I don't want to have to see something like the Complete Humanoids Handbook in 4e because monsters work differently than characters.

Look at BESM or M&M. Both are a lot easier to 'stat' up monsters in and afaic, both use the same rules for the NPCs/Monstes as they do the characters.

If we're going to get to the point where monsters are just a line name, # of attacks, hit points, and damage per attack with special abilities... well, I can see it be a huge space saver since you don't need to list out skills/feats/unused abilities, but completely backwards in thinking.

 

[grimslade]

I like this approach. Humanoid monsters will be able to have a 1-30 racial level write up. We'll see less of the Half-celestial Awakened Gelatinous Cube paladins.

3.X is fantastic for player options but it is a nightmare to prepare as a GM. I used to love the complete control over opponents for my PCs. Every foe was unique. Class levels, Feat choices and templates meant never running the same monster twice. Oh my lord the variation.
But now every foe was like rolling up a PC. The paperwork the wrangling of skills and feats for PrCs. Template abuse. In seeking a cooler monster I sucked out all the flavor and replaced it with mechanics. I welcome monsters as monsters, not DM PCs.

 

[EricNoah]

I believe that PCs and NPCs/Monsters play by different rules, and can/should be designed to match this philosophy. There might be awkward "story reasons" needed to explain why PC Minotaur isn't the same as NPC Minotaur, but I'm willing to live with that.