Cleave and Full Attack

[Caliban]

PHB pg 124, bottom left of page under Full Attack:

"If you get more than one attack per action because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons, because you're using a double weapon, or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item) you must use the full attack action to get your additional attacks."

pg. 80, Cleave:
"...you get an immediate, extra melee attack..."

Page 124 is referring to your normal attacks per action.

A cleave, great cleave, an AoO, or a Speed weapon gives you extra attacks outside of your normal attack action. (That's extra, as in "In additioin to".)

They are not part of your normal attack sequence, and thus are not governed by the rule on page 124. Two weapon fighting, double weapons, extra attacks from a high BAB, Rapid Shot, Improved Two weapon fighting all add to the number of attacks in your normal full attack action, they do not happen outside of an attack action.

 

[Caliban]

Hey, I had another idea - Great Cleave off a Spring Attack! Haven't read far enough in the FAQ to see if Skip allows it, but on past form presumably so. The munchkin part of me can't wait to play again so I can try that on some poor GM...

That's perfectly legal.

Your definition of munchkin seems to be "anytime a melee character can compete with a spellcaster for damage."

Because I guarantee you, one fireball or explosive cascade is going to do more damage against a larger number of targets than cleave ever will.

 

[Darklone]

Silly thread. Sure you can cleave without the full attack action. And before you ask: Yes, you can cleave after killing someone with an AoO!

 

[mikebr99]

Hey, I had another idea - Great Cleave off a Spring Attack! Haven't read far enough in the FAQ to see if Skip allows it, but on past form presumably so. The munchkin part of me can't wait to play again so I can try that on some poor GM...

Perfectally legal and good fun...

Even better though... Whirlwind with cleave/great cleave. Also very legal...

fighters have to be able to compete with mass damaging spellcasters somehow.

 

[shurai]

I think Caliban's right on this one:

PHB pg 124


"If you get more than one attack per action because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons, because you're using a double weapon, or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item) you must use the full attack action to get your additional attacks."

The causal part of the sentence is important in this case. It refers to situations in which the number of attacks per action is increased in general. Cleave doesn't give you more than one attack per action, but rather grants an extra attack based on a conditional situation.

Also, every single time I've seen or played a character with the cleave feat, it has worked this way.

Edit: Also, what's cheesy about using Great Cleave with Spring Attack? If you ask me, dropping a bunch of lesser foes and then dashing away again doesn't do too much good, because your action is still spent and the enemies are all still dead even if you didn't use Spring Attack. The extra move is a cool option but you're still held back by your movement rate, and how often will that extra 10 feet matter? After all, you've spent six feats to get to Great Cleave and Spring Attack. To me, it seems like that many feats justify the benefits of using them together.

-S

 

[Otterscrubber]

I think the key word in the Cleave Feat is "immediate". This seems to imply that the extra attack automatically happens if there is an available opponent despite what is listed under a full attack action. It really could go either way depending on your position, but cleave has never ruined or unbalanced any adventure I've ever played in so I let it go.

Besides, this feat would be almost useless if you had to plan for it in advance. I can't speak for all DMs but my players are rarely in a position to tell if their next blow will kill a creature. How do they know that kobold isn't an 8th level Fighter? Obviously it helps if you occasionally thow in an 8th level Kobold fighter from time to time. It adds a nice Conanesque feel of chopping down a bunch of creatures you dont' even get xp for on your way to kill that big evil cleric. I think it is great from a players and a DMs point of view.

 

[S'mon]

Your player's have every right to try & change the way things are done. You may (or may not?) have final say, but if they're not happy then you must addapt, or your sessions will fall apart. My group tends to vote on things. In the case of an outright impass, then it comes down to my ruling. In the end it doesn't matter as long as you're following the same rules for Cleave & Great cleave as the PC's are.

_My_ players are pathetically grateful that I let them have the occasional magic item and buy potions of cure light wounds now and then. Our previous GM never let us have _anything_ - when the campaign ended my 6th level cleric had mundane bandmail, and that only because I'd guest GM'd a session where the PCs found a few hundred gold. Most we ever found in the regular game was 20 gp - the hidden treasure cache of the high priest of the evil god...