Cantrips as encounter powers?

[Janaxstrus]

No encounter powers.

I would rather see cantrips = Intelligence (or charisma, wisdom, whatever)

18 int? 18 cantrips per day.
14 charisma? 14 per day.

In fact, I would rather they be unlimited or limited to your casting Mod than be an encounter power. ANYTHING, except encounter powers.

 

[B.T.]

Rather than actually making them encounter powers, why not create certain spells that, when prepared, are castable again after a short rest?

 

[nogray]

No encounter powers.

I would rather see cantrips = Intelligence (or charisma, wisdom, whatever)

18 int? 18 cantrips per day.
14 charisma? 14 per day.

In fact, I would rather they be unlimited or limited to your casting Mod than be an encounter power. ANYTHING, except encounter powers.

Just curious, but do you object to any spell, power, or actively-used character resource that can be regained during a short rest? Or is it just spells? Or is it more broad than that, and you object to a short rest being of any use at all (so the only rest that counts for anything is the longer rest ~8hrs)?

 

[Gorgoroth]

..

Here's an example why encounter powers suck for story :

You have a big battle, and a warlord, or cleric, or bard, and they have encounter powers that let you spend a surge +1d6, or +3d6.

The battle's over, you wait 5 minutes to heal your comrades so they can get the "free" 1d6. Oh, but you tell them, "don't surge up, because it's wasted surges". Why? because those who need healing, but can't benefit from your limited per-encounter resource (healing/inspiring word) right away, should rather wait another 5 minutes for their turn to get another, "fresh", 1d6 for free. Essentially, breaking up the post-battle into 5 minute chunks of healing. It sucks. The DM at our table groaned when we did this...and if he tried to say "no", it was unfair to the leaders who had taken that class feature, especially if they spent feats to boost them, or bought magic items to boost them.

Much, much better to allow people to spend it all right away if they need to, then be out for the day sooner, than have the day cut up into neat-o 144 divisions (5 minute chunks of the day).

Being able to cast something 144 times a day is no more realistic than casting it 5000, or 5 million...because after a couple dozen, who's counting anyway?

 

[Janaxstrus]

Just curious, but do you object to any spell, power, or actively-used character resource that can be regained during a short rest? Or is it just spells? Or is it more broad than that, and you object to a short rest being of any use at all (so the only rest that counts for anything is the longer rest ~8hrs)?

I object to and reject the entire premise of regaining spells/abilities in the middle of the day.

The "day" is a pretty precise measurement of time that I prefer for all refreshing of abilities and powers. I don't like the "encounter", which could be 4 rounds or 4 hours, because it is completely variable.

 

[B.T.]

The "day" is a pretty precise measurement of time that I prefer for all refreshing of abilities and powers.

It's not actually that precise. Is a day 24 hours? Or is the end of the "day" a figurative timeframe that relies on a period of rest? Is it when the clock hits midnight? What happens if I use one daily power at 1:00 PM and another at 11:00 PM? Do I regain one power at 1:00 PM and the other at 11:00 PM? What if I use all my daily powers at 11:59 PM? Do I get them back when at 12:00 AM? What happens if I use up my daily powers at nine in the morning, rest for eight hours, and start adventuring again at five? Do I get my "daily" powers back?

In my games, a "day" is measured in periods of eight-hour rest. But that's just how I run it.

I don't like the "encounter", which could be 4 rounds or 4 hours, because it is completely variable.

That's not really the case if you have to rest for a short period of time (put it on a 15-minute timer if necessary) to regain your abilities. Truthfully, forcing characters to rest for five, ten, or fifteen minutes to regain the use of their abilities is infinitely more precise than the vague notion of a day.

 

[nogray]

I object to and reject the entire premise of regaining spells/abilities in the middle of the day.

The "day" is a pretty precise measurement of time that I prefer for all refreshing of abilities and powers. I don't like the "encounter", which could be 4 rounds or 4 hours, because it is completely variable.

That is not really what I asked. To me, it looks like your falling back to encounter is a dodge. What I asked was about whether you thought any form of resource should be regained after a short (five or ten minute) rest, or if the only rest you thought should be meaningful is the long rest (six to eight hours).

I'll also note that you specify "spells and abilities," by which I might take it that you are okay with regaining some more passive resource (such as hit points) in the middle of the day? Or am I misreading?

Thank you for your patience in explaining your viewpoint.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Here's an example why encounter powers suck for story :

You have a big battle, and a warlord, or cleric, or bard, and they have encounter powers that let you spend a surge +1d6, or +3d6.

The battle's over, you wait 5 minutes to heal your comrades so they can get the "free" 1d6. Oh, but you tell them, "don't surge up, because it's wasted surges". Why? because those who need healing, but can't benefit from your limited per-encounter resource (healing/inspiring word) right away, should rather wait another 5 minutes for their turn to get another, "fresh", 1d6 for free. Essentially, breaking up the post-battle into 5 minute chunks of healing. It sucks. The DM at our table groaned when we did this...and if he tried to say "no", it was unfair to the leaders who had taken that class feature, especially if they spent feats to boost them, or bought magic items to boost them.

Much, much better to allow people to spend it all right away if they need to, then be out for the day sooner, than have the day cut up into neat-o 144 divisions (5 minute chunks of the day).

Being able to cast something 144 times a day is no more realistic than casting it 5000, or 5 million...because after a couple dozen, who's counting anyway?

Encounter spells should never heal you. Period. These are problematic spells.

Also it is easy not to call them encounter spells. Just write:

Cantrips are easy to memorize: You can do so after a short rest of ten minutes and you can use a prepared cantrip a number of times equal to your int modifier.

You should not change the general design of those spells. Design them as if they were at-will.

So, you could expect an average wizard to have magic missile prepared 3 times until you rest again. This usually is enough to bridge the time between your more potent spells, but not enough to hol them back forever.

 

[GreyICE]

I object to and reject the entire premise of regaining spells/abilities in the middle of the day.

The "day" is a pretty precise measurement of time that I prefer for all refreshing of abilities and powers. I don't like the "encounter", which could be 4 rounds or 4 hours, because it is completely variable.

This seems like a flavor complaint, not a mechanics complaint.

Would you be open to a power in the following format?

Scribe Rune - A Rune Scriber can prepare a number of runes based on his level (see Table 3-5). Enscribing a minor rune takes about one minute with the proper materials (runescribers kit, a properly prepared scribing surface), and the surface will hold the rune for up to a day.

A Rune Scriber can release the stored power of a rune as a standard action.

Major runes require longer preparation time, and occasionally costly materials. Details for their power, casting time, and duration are found with each major rune.

 

[CleverNickName]

I will put a per-day limit on cantrips as soon as I open the book, if it isn't there already. We are playtesting a limit of twice the number of 1st level spells, and it works like a champ.

I understand how running out of magic can be a bummer, but was it really that big of a deal to buy a ranged weapon? What was so game-breaking about a cleric with a crossbow, that made them decide that giving every cleric a weightless, one-handed, auto-reloading, ammo-free "crossbow" for free at 1st level was necessary?