evilbob said:
Because if a check is what I'm calling "reactive" you cannot take 10: you're being threatened or distracted, and you are "reacting" to another creature. When I say "proactive" I mean taking a skill check before you need it; i.e. doing something ahead of time when you are not threatened or distracted, and you can take 10. I'm just trying to qualify the two situations with descriptive terms.
I think this is getting more complicated than skill checks need to be. We don't need this terminology. Just make the check whenever you do something that requires a check (unless the description says otherwise, like Forgery). Roll your Hide check
when you hide, not when someone decides to look for you. You're still hidden even if no one's looking for you. As soon as they try to see you, they can oppose your Hide check with their Spot check.
People seem to be ready to compare Hide to Disguise and Forgery. There is no language in the Hide description that says a character shouldn't make a Hide check until someone else tries to Spot him. Nor is there language to that effect in Disguise (even though the Forgery description makes it sound like there is). In fact, Disguise states that "an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter." It doesn't say that your Disguise check has to be made at the same time. Likewise, Hide says "If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide." How could you possibly Hide
in reaction to someone Spotting you?
evilbob said:
I have to completely disagree with you here: being in range of a melee attack does threaten you, but "being threatened or distracted" includes much more than "being in range of a melee attack." It includes any kind of battle situation.
I might agree with you if there weren't a specific game definition of "threatened," but there is. "Distracted," however, is another matter.
evilbob said:
For example, if a balor is running at your rogue, you can't "take 10" on an open lock check just because he's not currently in melee range. In the same way, if someone is actively looking for your character, you cannot take 10 on a hide.
The rogue is not
threatened by the balor until the balor is in range to attack him. However, I think you're right not to allow him to take 10; I would consider the rogue
distracted by the immediately impending danger of being run through by a humongous demon. In the situation of hiding, I do not consider the potential of someone looking for you later to be a considerable distraction while attempting to hide (and I certainly wouldn't consider it being threatened).
evilbob said:
Why would you believe I was talking about hiding after being spotted?
Because that's when reactions happen:
after the event they're reacting to. You can't react to something that hasn't happened yet. If you're using Hide reactively, it has to be in reaction to something, and that something is a Spot check. But if the Spot check has already happened and you're
not hidden, then he's already seen you; there's no point in hiding. On the other hand, if you make your Hide check
when you hide then anyone who comes along can oppose it (without having to react to it).
evilbob said:
If someone has spotted you, then it was because you were hiding and they beat your hide check.
Not true, unless you're saying that you can't spot something that isn't hidden.
evilbob said:
you roll a hide in reaction to or "in opposition to" an opposed spot check.
Here's the problem! "In opposition to" does not mean the same thing as "in reaction to." Here's the section on opposed checks:
Opposed Checks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.
There's nothing there that says opposed checks are in reaction to another character's actions. They could happen simultaneously (like during a Trip attempt) or hours apart (like with Disguise). They're not
reactive; they're just
opposed.
evilbob said:
If no one is spotting you, then you don't need to roll a hide check. You are just - to use the english language word that is not a D&D term - hidden.
Again, not true. You don't need to make a Hide check if
you're not going to hide, not if someone is not going to look for you. That's like saying you don't need to make a Diplomacy check when you attempt to negotiate; you make the check when the other party responds. Can they simply negate your attempt by never responding? Does an unopposed check automatically fail instead of automatically succeeding?
evilbob said:
Nothing, so long as you realize that you're actually "making the check" once someone is trying to "spot" you, and not beforehand.
How can someone attempt to oppose your Hide check with Spot if you're not
already hidden?
evilbob said:
My argument is that it is not. Neither skill is passive; they are made in reaction to each other. There is no need for a hide check if nothing is spotting you.
The rules don't say, "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who is trying to see you." They say, "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who
might see you." If they
might see you, then they also
might not see you. You roll the check whether they're going to try to see you or not.
Hussar said:
And this is precisely the way all opposed checks are made. If I set an ambush an hour in advance, I don't make the hide check until there is an observer to hide from.
Cite your source. There's nothing in the Hide description nor the description of Opposed Checks to indicate that is the case. That may be why that clause is included in Forgery and not in Opposed Checks.
Mistwell said:
I disagree, and there you go using "reactive" again to describe hide. You CANNOT use hide as a reaction to an observer trying to spot you - by definition in the text of hide you cannot hide when being observed. You must use it prior to being observed, and hence it is NEVER in reaction to someone who could be spotting you (because then you cannot hide). You always roll hide first. Now it might be at a time when you are being distracted or threatened by something (like a trap that threatens you, or a hundred things that could be distracting), in which case you cannot take 10. But it's not "reactive" to an attempted spot check by definition. If you're reacting, you're too late to hide.
Amen.