Brutal 2 and Vorpal question

[DarkLord Of DForce]

I've got a question about these 2 qualities on the same weapon. Its an Execution Axe, for the record.

According to the latest entries from the compendium:

Brutal 2:
Brutal 2 (A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.).

Vorpal:
Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.

Now...on a +2 Large Vorpal Execution Axe, heroic level character, on a normal At-Will attack power, no crits, he roll 2d6s.

One is a 6. Now, to me, the Brutal 2 spec has been met. The player rerolls the 6 because of Vorpal and gets a 2. He says he rerolls that because of Brutal 2. I'm thinking he doesn't, because Brutal 2 says when rolling the weapons damage, not vorpal damage.

Otherwise, the rerolls will go on pretty much forever.

Can someone please clarify this? Thanks.

 

[Obryn]

I'd say your player is right. Brutal works every time he rolls a [w] die. If you get sick of re-rolling, change the 1d6b2 to 1d4+2.

Besides, if you gave them a Large Vorpal Executioner's Axe at Heroic tier... this is the least of your worries!

-O

 

[malraux]

I'd side with the player as well. The whole point of brutal is that the results of 1 and 2 are invalid. The whole point of vorpal is that the max number gets rerolled. That's a great setup for lots of rerolls.

 

[nogray]

Not RAW

It's not rules-as-written, but for a dice size changing like that (from 1d12 to 2d6), I'd also modify the Brutal back to Brutal 1. Normally, Brutal 2 is for the bigger die sizes (d10 and d12). Brutal 1 is for the smaller die sizes (d6). The d8 seems to have examples of both: the Athasian carrikal is 1d8 brutal 2, but the khopesh is 1d8 brutal 1 (both are +2 proficiency, but the khopesh is both an axe and a heavy blade).

 

[Mengu]

Your player is right. And yes, this gives each die a 25% chance to explode, much like using a 2d4 weapon, except damage is bigger since it's 3-6. And yes, having played games with exploding dice, this happens very frequently and you could get massive damage values out of it.

By level 30, dice don't account for much of the damage, static modifiers do, so it's not such a big deal then (actually makes dice count for something a little more tangible). As mentioned numerous times in the other thread, the combination is simply too good for mid-heroic level.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Okey-dokey then, thanks guys. Appreciated.

 

[S'mon]

It's not rules-as-written, but for a dice size changing like that (from 1d12 to 2d6), I'd also modify the Brutal back to Brutal 1.

Agreed - the Brutal rules aren't intended to work unmodified alongside weapon up-size conversions*; Brutal-2 on a 1d12 Execution Axe is equivalent to Brutal-1 on a 2d6 weapon like a Mordenkrad.

This 'Heroic Tier' weapon is an incredible piece of cheese, BTW.

*Which are not really part of the RAW as far as PCs are concerned, either.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yep, just say no.

Loud and long. It will be worth it.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

It's fun, as a DM, to sometimes give players what they want, the stuff of their wildest charop dreams... until you realize what a terrible thing it is. Then you're faced with taking it away, or letting it break the campaign.

If you're going to drop nuggets like this, to let them have their fun, make it known that it is a short-term romp. 4e's Artifact rules are perfect for this - when the story arc is done, or they manage to piss the item (or the DM) off *bampf* it's gone. Since it's part of the story, it's harder for them to whine about it.

 

[malraux]

It's fun, as a DM, to sometimes give players what they want, the stuff of their wildest charop dreams... until you realize what a terrible thing it is. Then you're faced with taking it away, or letting it break the campaign.

If you're going to drop nuggets like this, to let them have their fun, make it known that it is a short-term romp. 4e's Artifact rules are perfect for this - when the story arc is done, or they manage to piss the item (or the DM) off *bampf* it's gone. Since it's part of the story, it's harder for them to whine about it.

OOOOOOO. Here's what I would do: Every time the dice explode to a certain point, I'd up the brutal range. (i.e. get 3 exploded dice and suddenly the weapon becomes brutal 3). It keeps going like that until it hits brutal 6 and then explodes, removing itself from the campaign. It'll wreck a boss encounter, as it clearly becomes an insta-kill weapon, but the DM should suck it up for overpowering the campaign. The advantage to this: it becomes self limiting (the more the PCs use it, the more likely it is to leave the game), it doesn't punish, and its pretty awesome.