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Been saying it for years...

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
This is not necessarily a case where Amazon was a bad guy, and Apple the good-guy savior of the masses. Both Apple and Amazon can be in the wrong, here.

I agree. However, as things stand right now, Apple isn't dictating terms to the market and the prices at which they sell are being set by the producers of the goods- like any standard manufacturer-retailer relationship. A price that publishers think is necessary for sustainability.

And that may be key.

The reason is that a monopoly or monopsony is not per se illegal. What IS illegal is using monopoly or monopsony power in anti-competitive ways.

Despite having written exceptions to monopoly prosecution in the law, the NFL, NBA and MLB can still occasionally face prosecution on those terms. The USFL successfully proved the NFL was a monopoly, but was unable to prove harm, and was rewarded the nominal award of $1USD (yes, a single dollar). They also risk losing their immunity from prosectution every time there is a labor dispute in those leagues.
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
So? Consumers are benefiting. If a corporation doesn't want Amazon to sell its products at below cost they can put that in the contract or, as in this case, not deal with Amazon at all.

You're not trying to protect the consumers, you're trying to protect corporate profit margins. Your quotes confirm that.

That's assuming all publishers are corporations - most are not. Why is any possible benefit to the little company seems to be always slotted into the 'protect corporate profit margins' category. If you're looking at RPG publishers, most publishers are 1 guy as a sole proprietorship, not some corporation.

It may be true that corporations can benefit too, but anything that hurts the little guy in business hurts the consumers. Consumers aren't benefiting, they're losing here too. Price isn't everything, nor is it the only possible benefit to a business transaction.

Supporting Amazon's position here is more detrimental to the consumer, than it is to your corporate margins argument, since Amazon is a corporation (the big 'dirty kind' that your corporate margins argument should be directed at.)
 
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Iku Rex

Explorer
(This is looking more and more like the dreaded politics, but I figure Umbran will step in if he feels it's over the line.)

Not in the long run- if amazon becomes the only or nearly only outlet, they can dictate prices & policies.
And if pigs could fly...

In fact, even if Amazon by some miracle did become the only outlet, it would still be vulnerable new competitors if it abused its position.

They can also manipulate the market token new companies from entering the market- Marvel & DC Comics have done this by periodically flooding the market with titles, making it extmely difficult for competitors to get shelf space and sucking up the $$$ of the market's main purchasers as they strive for "complete" ollections.
You are really going to argue that there are no non-Marvel/DC comic publishers?! Not true, and you know it. There are other comic book publishers, and the fact that you have to use two rival companies (Marvel and DC) in your example makes it even more absurd with regards to monopolies.

Other companies do likewise- like Coke & Pepsi.
There is no shortage of available drinks on the market, including Coke and Pepsi clones.

No they can't.

As pointed out in the articles, if a publisher does not accept Amazon's price- physical or e-books- Amazon will either not sell them or will cross-subsidize the sale of their books while selling them at a loss. Consumers who are looking at price only will stop buying the products at other outlets where prices are higher, so sales at those other outlets drop (also shown in those articles). Products that don't sell get returned; those publishers don't get orders for new products, leaving Amazon as the monopsonist and able to dictate price.

Yes, they can.

As pointed out in the articles, a publisher does not have to accept Amazon's terms and prices. In this case the fact that they didn't is the story, so I really don't see why you would be confused. Of course Amazon doesn't have to sell the books if they can't negotiate an agreement. And if Amazon is buying books (according to an agreement) and selling them at a loss, that ought to be cause for celebration - Amazon is effectively subsidizing the publisher. (They should buy a few million copies for themselves, but I suppose the agreed upon contract probably prohibits that.)

The idea that Amazon can somehow gain a total monopoly in this way is just plain nonsense. And if they did get a monopoly, they would not be able to "dictate prices", because new competitors could always enter the market.

And notice that
According to Suchomel, the removal of IPG’s books from the Kindle store shouldn’t have a big impact on the firm’s business, adding that its titles are still available at other online stores such as iTunes and BarnesandNoble.com.
Amazon pulls 5,000 titles from Kindle store in dispute with distributor

IPG did chose not to deal with Amazon, and are selling at higher prices. You are arguing against a proven fact.


Before being broken up, Ma Bell used to rent phones- a basic rented rotary phone might cost you hundreds of dollars a year before companies were allowed to start selling them for $10-20.
Bell System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A government-created monopoly is hardly a good example of a harmful free market monopoly.

Among the oligopolies, there is enough economic data on Wal-Mart's negative pressure on wages that they constantly find themselves in court over it,
Wal-Mart operates in a highly competitive market and is a horrible example of a harmful monopoly.

If they can cut costs by lowering wages, consumers benefit.

If emplyees can gret a better deal elsewhere (including things like training and opportunities for inexperienced workers) they will go work elsewhere, so I doubt that Wal-Mart actually offers less than market value for labor. I suppose they could be doing more with less, thus leaving more people unemployed in the short term and lowering the price of labor, but a reasonable person should not object to greater efficiency. Luddism is way outdated.

while Marvel/DC & Coke/Pepsi routinely keep competitors from entering the market by glutting it with products...or buying smaller companies outright. .
I can't say categorically that they don't try, but they clearly and undisputably don't succeed. Competitors do exist and new competitors do enter the market.

Since Standard Oil's breakup,
Standard Oil reduced prices to a fraction of what they were before the evil "monopolist" started gouging consumers.

In fact, as usual the main "evidence" against Standard Oil was that its competitors were having a hard time. Consumers were doing great.
the industry has been dominated by the oligopolistic cartel known as OPEC.
OPEC is an organization of governments, and so it has different goals than a hypothetical free market cartel. Many oil-producing countries aren't members. OPEC-countries have routinely ignored their quotas.

And to the extent that OPEC actually stabilized oil prices/consumption, this is not automatically a bad thing for consumers in the long run.


Microsoft ony just dodged getting broken up itself.
Not a monopoly, except in so far as government-granted copyrights and patents prevents competition. (By design.)

I also note that you can now get a quality operating system for free. How terrible.


The monopsonistic practices of GM and other large auto makers is very well documented.

There are many different auto makers. They aren't monopsonies. I'm sure some of them are very important to individual suppliers, and use that for everything it's worth, but they can only negotiate lower prices as long as the supplier is making a profit. In the end, consumers benefit.
 

Iku Rex

Explorer
That's assuming all publishers are corporations - most are not.
I suspect we're using the word corporation differently. Feel free to substitute "company" or "business" in that quote.

Why is any possible benefit to the little company seems to be always slotted into the 'protect corporate profit margins' category. If you're looking at RPG publishers, most publishers are 1 guy as a sole proprietorship, not some corporation.
A corporation can have one employee. But it doesn't matter. You're not owed a living. A one man company has no more right to demand a huge profit than a multinational corporation.

It may be true that corporations can benefit too, but anything that hurts the little guy in business hurts the consumers. Consumers aren't benefiting, they're losing here too. Price isn't everything, nor is it the only possible benefit to a business transaction.
If consumers aren't benefiting they are free to shop elsewhere.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I agree. However, as things stand right now, Apple isn't dictating terms to the market and the prices at which they sell are being set by the producers of the goods- like any standard manufacturer-retailer relationship.

Well, as I understand it, there's a question about that. In theory, agency pricing should do that. If, however, Apple and the publishers colluded - all discussed and agreed on pricing - that's price fixing, and it is illegal, even if you aren't the market leader.

The difference is:

Pure Agency: "Hey, come to Apple, and price how you want!"

The Accusation: "Hey, come to Apple, and price how you want! (But just between us, we need you to all set your prices at X, so we can force Amazon to follow suit!)"

The former is fine, the latter is not. If they all *just happened* to set their prices the same way, so they *just happened* to force Amazon to follow, then that's natural market forces at work. Coincidence? That's for a court to decide.

And remember, it isn't like Apple isn't a major force. At the time, they didn't have a big share of the e-book market, but their overall weight in the mobile devices market was huge, Kindle be darned! So, exactly who may be the monopolist here isn't nearly so clear cut.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
A corporation can have one employee. But it doesn't matter. You're not owed a living. A one man company has no more right to demand a huge profit than a multinational corporation.

No one is owed a living, but the difference between a living income and a huge profit, is huge in itself. When a large corporation which deals in volu me sales, the profit margins can be slight and still profitable. For companies that deal in much smaller volumes, the margin is slimmer. So what it takes to be profitable cannot be compared to what a large corporation requires.

You say 'against corporate profit margins', yet argument only supports the large corporate entity which is not the majority business type in the world. Small business is 90% of all business, and yet they cannot monopolize the market like true large corporation do.


If consumers aren't benefiting they are free to shop elsewhere.

And they do, I'm a consumer and Amazon doesn't get my dollars.
 

Iku Rex

Explorer
No one is owed a living, but the difference between a living income and a huge profit, is huge in itself. When a large corporation which deals in volu me sales, the profit margins can be slight and still profitable. For companies that deal in much smaller volumes, the margin is slimmer. So what it takes to be profitable cannot be compared to what a large corporation requires.

True. But if smaller companies can't compete in some way (and usually they can, or most of them wouldn't exist today), our society is better off with those people doing useful work elsewhere.

You say 'against corporate profit margins', yet argument only supports the large corporate entity which is not the majority business type in the world. Small business is 90% of all business, and yet they cannot monopolize the market like true large corporation do.
Not sure what you mean. My argument stands for a one employee company as well as a 1 million employee one. Either way the priority should be on consumers (aka everyone) over the wants of a smaller number of rent-seeking businesses.


And they do, I'm a consumer and Amazon doesn't get my dollars.
Good for you. You are proving my point though. Amazon can't grab a 100% market share just by having low prices for a little while. Some consumers, like yourself, have other priorities. And I'm sure that if Amazon got bigger and started abusing its position to harm consumers, more people would think like you.
 
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El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
I wish I could find the article, but my google fu is weak today...

There was an article out a few weeks ago about a TV manufacturer that was setting the minimum price at which their products could be sold. They were calling it the Universal Price or something like that. The idea being that whether you were a brick-and-mortar Best Buy, a mom-and-pop store, or Amazon, you could not lower the price beyond this amount...regardless of what discounts you wanted to apply to it or whether you could afford to. They wanted to mitigate the impact of Amazon undercutting brick-and-mortars or other competitors.

I wish every manufacturer/publisher would do that.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
True. But if smaller companies can't compete in some way (and usually they can, or most of them wouldn't exist today), our society is better off with those people doing useful work elsewhere.

That's because most companies do not consider price as that differing factor. Quality, customer service, turn-around, personalization. Small companies continue to exist because price is just one small aspect of the overall difference to the consumer and they offer something beyond the cheapest price tag.

If the argument is on price alone, only the big monopolies can win. Luckily most people acquire things using more than price as the only deciding factor. Because of that, small business continues to survive.
 

Fast Learner

First Post
Danny's done an excellent job of saying everything I would have wanted to, but better.

I will add that the concept that consumers benefit if the price is lower is extremely short-term thinking. Low prices, as exemplified by WalMart, can have a massively harmful effect on the overall economy. It's cool that you can buy your gallon jar of pickles for $1.99, but when you no longer have a job that lower price is meaningless.

A near-single point of sale -- remember that 80% of the ebook market that Amazon has -- also tends to drive quality down and down. Woohoo, you can buy any ebook you want for $2.99, but three years later they're poorly edited pieces of garbage and it's nearly impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The Apple App Store suffers from this more and more, but because the market is growing fast enough there are still big-money curators in the game, along with indies devoting their lives to refining single apps, and quality product remains. Once adoption slows the crap percentage will rise from 90% to 99% and neither will be able to/want to be involved, but hey, all that crap will be 99 cents.
 

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