D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 Hates Religion (Spoilers)

[Steampunkette]

Okay.

Clerics and Paladins are the gods helping. Chosen are irrelevant to the question.

Like…the Realms are in an era where they have just gotten the cosmology back in order less than a decade ago. A big part of that was the gods not poking the world so damn much and letting mortals do thier thing. We had a whole sundering about this.


I mean imagine the infantalised hell of the gods solving all the problems of the mortal races. There are no “good” gods in such a world, just nicer and less nice pet owners.

Ehhh... Clerics and Paladins that aren't directed by their gods. That just go out and do stuff and in a couple of cases (Aylin, Minthara, Shadowheart) it relates to the story.

Meanwhile Gale gets explicit directions in what to do from Mystra even though he isn't a cleric and gets that info from Elminster who is VASTLY more capable of doing everything by himself than the entire party working together. And the directions he gets would kill him, the party, and doom the Sword Coast... but at least her goal (Destroying the Crown of Karsus) gets completed, right?

The point isn't that the Realms are filled with Chekhov's Guns that can never, ever, fire, though. I mean OBVIOUSLY that's a big part of the problems of the Realms.

But the core thrust of this post was: Every religious character in the game is betrayed by their deity to some degree or another. Religion within the setting serves only the purpose of disillusionment.

Yes, the gods are useless and stupid. It's long been an important, one might even say foundational, aspect of the setting (and one of the many reasons I hate it). But some people in this conversation are being unfair to Vlaakith. She's not a goddess, no matter how much she and her followers say she is. She's a lich pretending to be a goddess. She has absolutely no divine power whatsoever. And, unlike the actual deities involved in this plot, is actually doing something about it, in the form of sending a sizeable contingent of her people to this out of the way backwater to try to fight against this. Granted, she's working from vastly incomplete information, and is fundamentally incapable of accepting that non-gith might actually matter, but she's still leaps and bounds ahead of the curve compared to all the actual gods who should be taking this way more seriously than they are.

She's not a god, but the thread wasn't originally about gods so much as religion. And her people are -absolutely- members of the Church of Vlaakith. Her divinity is kind of secondary.

S'why I kinda commented on Astarion's ascension making him a "God among vampires" and just as detached as the rest of the gods, even if he never hits "Divine Rank 1" in D&D Terms.

It's just kinda weird that religion in the game's core story serves only antagonistic and toxic roles. Except Selune's worship, but Selune only really intervenes to save her own people. Her daughter, her daughter's girlfriend, and the last surviving member(s) of her little town of elf werewolves and their human companions.

 

[Shardstone]

Ehhh... Clerics and Paladins that aren't directed by their gods. That just go out and do stuff and in a couple of cases (Aylin, Minthara, Shadowheart) it relates to the story.

Meanwhile Gale gets explicit directions in what to do from Mystra even though he isn't a cleric and gets that info from Elminster who is VASTLY more capable of doing everything by himself than the entire party working together. And the directions he gets would kill him, the party, and doom the Sword Coast... but at least her goal (Destroying the Crown of Karsus) gets completed, right?

The point isn't that the Realms are filled with Chekhov's Guns that can never, ever, fire, though. I mean OBVIOUSLY that's a big part of the problems of the Realms.

But the core thrust of this post was: Every religious character in the game is betrayed by their deity to some degree or another. Religion within the setting serves only the purpose of disillusionment.

She's not a god, but the thread wasn't originally about gods so much as religion. And her people are -absolutely- members of the Church of Vlaakith. Her divinity is kind of secondary.

S'why I kinda commented on Astarion's ascension making him a "God among vampires" and just as detached as the rest of the gods, even if he never hits "Divine Rank 1" in D&D Terms.

It's just kinda weird that religion in the game's core story serves only antagonistic and toxic roles. Except Selune's worship, but Selune only really intervenes to save her own people. Her daughter, her daughter's girlfriend, and the last surviving member(s) of her little town of elf werewolves and their human companions.

Sounds like real life.

 

[Rystefn]

She's not a god, but the thread wasn't originally about gods so much as religion. And her people are -absolutely- members of the Church of Vlaakith. Her divinity is kind of secondary.

You're right, but when the conversation turned to "why aren't the gods helping?", people kept listing her as if she's a god who could help in divine ways. She's not and she IS helping, within the bounds of her ability and personality.

It's just kinda weird that religion in the game's core story serves only antagonistic and toxic roles. Except Selune's worship, but Selune only really intervenes to save her own people. Her daughter, her daughter's girlfriend, and the last surviving member(s) of her little town of elf werewolves and their human companions.

Selune's worship is also toxic. Extremely so. They think abandoning young children alone out in the woods is a cool and fun thing to do. Yes, the Church of Shar did horrible things to Shadowheart afterwards, but let's not forget that 1) they wouldn't have had a chance to if the Selunites weren't engaging in outright child abuse and 2) they literally saved her life from said abuse out there.

This is has always been part of the Shar/Selune dynamic. Yes, Shar is cruel and bitter, but Selune is also a monster, and the only reason she's seen as a "good guy" is because of the pants-on-head stupid philosophy of "dark = evil, light = good." It goes right back to the FR creation story, where Shar and Selune are great pals, creating everythign in balance, then one of them gets aggressively ambitious, breaks their deal, starts making everything to her liking, gets pissed when her sister tries to undo it, literally destroys an entire world to push things her way, then rips out a piece of her own soul to form a weapon to try to commit the first murder against her sister about it. Shar isn't the one that did all that stuff. That stuff happening to her is the reason Shar is now the goddess of grief and loss. In any sane world, Selune is the villain of that story.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Has someone mentioned that Withers, AKA Jergal, is actively backing the party with cut-price resurrections + fallen hero hirelings? That's some pretty blatant and powerful divine support.

In game you can employ the hirelings in all manner of ways. Camp casters are especially strong, I have my whole party + summons wandering around with Deathward, Freedom of movement, Heroes' feast, upcast Aid and Longstrider. Huge buffs that mitigate many bosses.

I've had Withers intervene on the starting beach (was monkeying around) before you even 'discover' him. He prepared beforehand and is already active.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ehhh... Clerics and Paladins that aren't directed by their gods. That just go out and do stuff and in a couple of cases (Aylin, Minthara, Shadowheart) it relates to the story.

Okay? They are the tools the gods give mortals to solve big problems. If mortals ignore those tools, that sucks but it was their choice.

Meanwhile Gale gets explicit directions in what to do from Mystra even though he isn't a cleric and gets that info from Elminster who is VASTLY more capable of doing everything by himself than the entire party working together.

Not anymore, last I checked. IIRC he and the other chosen were depowered severely, and he’s pretty much just a high level wizard with a few epic boons.

And the directions he gets would kill him, the party, and doom the Sword Coast... but at least her goal (Destroying the Crown of Karsus) gets completed, right?

Yeah, Mystea is kind of a dumbass. She always has been.

It's just kinda weird that religion in the game's core story serves only antagonistic and toxic roles. Except Selune's worship, but Selune only really intervenes to save her own people. Her daughter, her daughter's girlfriend, and the last surviving member(s) of her little town of elf werewolves and their human companions.

Which is already stretching the limits of divine interference in the Realms as they are now.

 

[Steampunkette]

Selune's worship is also toxic. Extremely so. They think abandoning young children alone out in the woods is a cool and fun thing to do. Yes, the Church of Shar did horrible things to Shadowheart afterwards, but let's not forget that 1) they wouldn't have had a chance to if the Selunites weren't engaging in outright child abuse and 2) they literally saved her life from said abuse out there.

This is has always been part of the Shar/Selune dynamic. Yes, Shar is cruel and bitter, but Selune is also a monster, and the only reason she's seen as a "good guy" is because of the pants-on-head stupid philosophy of "dark = evil, light = good." It goes right back to the FR creation story, where Shar and Selune are great pals, creating everythign in balance, then one of them gets aggressively ambitious, breaks their deal, starts making everything to her liking, gets pissed when her sister tries to undo it, literally destroys an entire world to push things her way, then rips out a piece of her own soul to form a weapon to try to commit the first murder against her sister about it. Shar isn't the one that did all that stuff. That stuff happening to her is the reason Shar is now the goddess of grief and loss. In any sane world, Selune is the villain of that story.

Err... that's not exactly what happened.

Jenevelle, Arnell, and Emmeline Hallowleaf were all Selunites living in Moonhaven village next to the massive Temple of Selune. As part of a rite of passage, young Jenevelle was tasked with finding her way home in the woods. But those woods were safe AF at the time. Also Jenevelle had to be, like, 10 at the youngest? 'Cause she's 40 in 1492 which is like 28 in half elf years.

Honestly, she looks 10 in this cutscene and with half-elf aging that puts her around 13ish actual years of age. More than old enough to take a stroll through peaceful woods at night on your way home without it being child abuse.

The only reason they happened to not be safe that particular day is because Viconia and her Sharrans were coming to kidnap children and destroy Moonhaven and the Temple of Selune.

There's a "Missing" poster where several kids' names are listed on the western wall of the village, and various notes and journals, which explain it. Plus Arnell lets you know he caught a Sharran spy who spilled the beans, wolfed-out, and went to save his daughter. He failed, obviously... but the Sharran Attack is why they also have Emmeline, who did not race out into the woods to save her daughter. They had to go into the village to get her as they wrecked everything else.

Moonhaven became "The Blighted Village" after the Sharran attack, and some time later the Goblins moved in to take over the temple with Dror Ragzlin as their "True Soul" leader. Why do I say "Some time later"? Because they're less than half a mile from the Druid Grove but haven't found it, yet. So they can't have been there for long, y'know?

Okay? They are the tools the gods give mortals to solve big problems. If mortals ignore those tools, that sucks but it was their choice.

Less "mortals ignored the tools" more "The tools weren't used by the gods". No divine message for the Priest of Ilmater about the Bhaalite Assassin coming to kill him, for example. No warning to anyone about the Dead Three rising.

Not anymore, last I checked. IIRC he and the other chosen were depowered severely, and he’s pretty much just a high level wizard with a few epic boons.

I mean, fair. But there's a lot of Chosen, and most of them are in a position of authority over others. Like the Silverhand. If Mystra can talk to Elminster and tell him to deliver a message to Gale why isn't Alustriel mobilizing Silverymoon's armies to fight the Absolute?

Yeah, Mystea is kind of a dumbass. She always has been.

This is also why Alustriel isn't mobilizing Silverymoon's armies to fight the Absolute!

Which is already stretching the limits of divine interference in the Realms as they are now.

Again, Mystra can and does direct her Chosen directly. Just as Bhaal tries to do with the Durge. She could also tell Alustriel to lend a hand.

Just a throwaway line in Act 3 with Gortash annoyed and frustrated that Silverymoon's forces are attacking the rear flank of the Army of the Absolute he arranged to attack would be enough to show that various Chekhov's Guns are firing in the background.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Less "mortals ignored the tools" more "The tools weren't used by the gods". No divine message for the Priest of Ilmater about the Bhaalite Assassin coming to kill him, for example. No warning to anyone about the Dead Three rising.

They aren’t the gods’ tools, they’re mortals’ tools.

I mean, fair. But there's a lot of Chosen, and most of them are in a position of authority over others. Like the Silverhand. If Mystra can talk to Elminster and tell him to deliver a message to Gale why isn't Alustriel mobilizing Silverymoon's armies to fight the Absolute?

This is also why Alustriel isn't mobilizing Silverymoon's armies to fight the Absolute!

Sure, Mystra is foolish. That reflects in the actions of her chosen, and I agree that the game portrays her as pretty mightily toxic, which doesn’t line up with previous characterizations IMO.

Again, Mystra can and does direct her Chosen directly. Just as Bhaal tries to do with the Durge. She could also tell Alustriel to lend a hand.

Just a throwaway line in Act 3 with Gortash annoyed and frustrated that Silverymoon's forces are attacking the rear flank of the Army of the Absolute he arranged to attack would be enough to show that various Chekhov's Guns are firing in the background.

Okay but none of that is necessary. The game is telling the story of your character and their companions, it doesn’t matter whether Waterdeep aids Baldur’s Gate against the bbeg of your story.

 

[Steampunkette]

Sure, Mystra is foolish. That reflects in the actions of her chosen, and I agree that the game portrays her as pretty mightily toxic, which doesn’t line up with previous characterizations IMO.

In fairness to her, this is, like, Mystra 6, right? 7?

It'd be weird if Louis the 14th had an identical personality to Louis the 5th, too.

Okay but none of that is necessary. The game is telling the story of your character and their companions, it doesn’t matter whether Waterdeep aids Baldur’s Gate against the bbeg of your story.

Nnnnyyeeeah.... kinda.

But, again, it's just the Avengers problem. The setting is littered with guns that never fire when they should.

Like I get that the writers aren't explicitly at fault for not taking hundreds of deities and gigabytes of lore into account, here. I wouldn't expect them to. It just makes the story weird in that regard, and it's really more the Setting's fault rather than this specific group of writers.

But, again, this is kind of a tangent off the core thrust of the three religiously tied origin characters being let down by their chosen gods. There are only three, and they're -all- betrayed or manipulated. Don't get me wrong, it all makes sense within the context of the story, and changing the story for that not to occur wouldn't automatically make it "Better" or anything. Just kinda weird that there's no good relationship between origin character and deity.

The closest we get, there, is Selune. But it comes across more as getting her toys back from a mean sibling than it does any kind of healthy relationship with her disciples.

 

[wicked cool]

Not getting the impression that the author of the post started out with but if I had 2 I would say they are similar to the old Greek gods
Depending on who you as the pc worship you get a lot of positive dialogue. Positive vibes from the cleric of selune we meet. Gale is willing to what he needs to do and in mythology it’s often the chosen 1 that may have to die or sacrifice for others
In fact the pretty much hammer home how making deals with devils are bad. Plus we get a divine favor
But you take whatever angle you want

 

[Shardstone]

In fairness to her, this is, like, Mystra 6, right? 7?

It'd be weird if Louis the 14th had an identical personality to Louis the 5th, too.

Nnnnyyeeeah.... kinda.

But, again, it's just the Avengers problem. The setting is littered with guns that never fire when they should.

Like I get that the writers aren't explicitly at fault for not taking hundreds of deities and gigabytes of lore into account, here. I wouldn't expect them to. It just makes the story weird in that regard, and it's really more the Setting's fault rather than this specific group of writers.

But, again, this is kind of a tangent off the core thrust of the three religiously tied origin characters being let down by their chosen gods. There are only three, and they're -all- betrayed or manipulated. Don't get me wrong, it all makes sense within the context of the story, and changing the story for that not to occur wouldn't automatically make it "Better" or anything. Just kinda weird that there's no good relationship between origin character and deity.

The closest we get, there, is Selune. But it comes across more as getting her toys back from a mean sibling than it does any kind of healthy relationship with her disciples.

An always-benevolent god is actually rare in most religions, at least by my research, though others can disagree. The Christian God is really one of the very few whose believers maintain that it said God is a never-ending source of beneficial miracles and love. Look at the rest of the world and many gods, especially the highest in a pantheon, are very morally grey and, because of their almighty power, actually skewing towards evil-by-incompetence. Even the Christian God does incredibly wild things in the Old Testament (annihilating two cities, the flood); so, really, there is no religion I know of where everything is peaceful, loving, and beneficial. Most people fear their god(s) IRL just as much as they love them. If the gods are then actually made real and have direct impact on the world, then there has to be reason why these gods are fear -- they sometimes do things that have consequences that create said fear.

Or in other words, it wouldn't be true to the human experience IMO if gods in the FR didn't do messed up things from time to time.