Pathfinder 1E Are there compelling reasons to upgrade to PF1 from 3.0?

[dead]

I’m still running a 3.0 game. I never updated to 3.5. I didn’t see the point. 3.5 seemed too similar to buy the core books all over again - plus it seemed like they were trying to be more tactical and less theatre of the mind in 3.5.

But if PF1 is less complex that 3.0, I’d certainly be open to upgrading.

If I were going to dive into it, I was thinking of eventually getting these books:

• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (2009)
• Bestiary (2009)
• GM Screen (2009)
• GameMastery Guide (2010)
• Bestiary 2 (2010)
• Bestiary 3 (2011)
• Bestiary 4 (2013)
• Bestiary 5 (2015)
• Bestiary 6 (2017)

Is the GameMastery Guide necessary? Sounds like it’s more GMing advice rather than a “core” book like the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Are the Bestiary books helpful? I’ve got all the 3.0/3.5 monster books: Monster Manual, Monster Manual 2, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual 3, Monster Manual 4 and Monster Manual 5. Will I be able to survive off them or would it be better to pick up the PF1 bestiaries?

And what’s the deal with the Mythic rules? Is a mythic 1st level character more powerful than a normal 1st level character? Do mythic characters and normal characters exist on Golarion at the same time?

Thank you

 

[Alzrius]

I don't know that I'd call PF1 "less complex" than 3.0 per se; the term I'd go with would be "less idiosyncratic," as PF1 standardizes and systematizes several things which 3.0 didn't. For instance, Hit Dice and BAB progression are interlinked; all half-BAB progression classes (e.g. wizards and sorcerers) have a d6 Hit Die, three quarter-BAB classes (such as rogues) have a d8 Hit Die, and full-progression BAB classes (such as fighters and rangers) always have either a d10 Hit Die or (for barbarians) a d12 Hit Die.

Likewise, there are not only fewer skills (e.g. Stealth instead of Hide and Move Silently), but the rules for class and cross-class skills are much simpler (and there are no restricted skills at all): all skills ranks are bought at a 1:1 cost via skill points (i.e. 1 skill point buys you 1 rank in a skill, always). The only difference between class skills and cross-class skills is that putting even 1 rank in a class skill gives it a permanent +3 bonus.

Feat progression is now at every odd-numbered level, instead of every third level. Quite a few more creature types can be sneak attacked (including undead, constructs, and plants). There's now a unified pair of stats for "combat maneuvers" such as grappling, tripping, bull rushing, etc. Those are Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD), both of which are calculated based on your BAB, Strength modifier, size, and a few other things.

In my experience, the GameMastery Guide is basically a book of "extras," in that while it does have some advice, it puts a large degree of concern toward areas of play that are somewhat outside the norm. For instance, it has rules for chases, for drug addiction, for madness and insanity, for haunts (which are presented as being sort of like traps rather than creatures), etc.

In terms of the Bestiaries...you can use your existing ones fairly well, if you don't mind the occasional minor issue coming up as per what's listed above. Of course, given that everything Paizo made for Pathfinder is available online for free (and legally), you can easily avail yourselves of their Bestiaries (click on the "sources" tab in the left to look at things on a per-book basis, albeit broken down by product line) if you want.

As for the Mythic rules, those were Paizo's answer to "epic level" stuff. The difference is that Paizo didn't want to have characters gain levels above 20, so they invented what was basically a parallel progression chart. "Mythic tiers" are something characters can gain alongside levels in a class, granting a lot of extra power, along with abilities which are designed to complement and improve their standard class abilities.

 

[payn]

I’m still running a 3.0 game. I never updated to 3.5. I didn’t see the point. 3.5 seemed too similar to buy the core books all over again - plus it seemed like they were trying to be more tactical and less theatre of the mind in 3.5.

But if PF1 is less complex that 3.0, I’d certainly be open to upgrading.

If I were going to dive into it, I was thinking of eventually getting these books:

• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (2009)
• Bestiary (2009)
• GM Screen (2009)
• GameMastery Guide (2010)
• Bestiary 2 (2010)
• Bestiary 3 (2011)
• Bestiary 4 (2013)
• Bestiary 5 (2015)
• Bestiary 6 (2017)

The best thing about PF1 is Archives of Neyths. You can essentially try nearly all the resources you are curious about before buying them.

Is the GameMastery Guide necessary? Sounds like it’s more GMing advice rather than a “core” book like the Dungeon Master's Guide.

It's expanded GM advice with a few new rules to try out. I find it an interesting read but also more of a GMing 101 resource. I wouldnt say its necessary.

If you like making your own adventures then the Ultimate Campaign book is useful for the options it offers to GMs and their players.

Are the Bestiary books helpful? I’ve got all the 3.0/3.5 monster books: Monster Manual, Monster Manual 2, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual 3, Monster Manual 4 and Monster Manual 5. Will I be able to survive off them or would it be better to pick up the PF1 bestiaries?

You can probably convert most of your existing monster manuals to PF1 with an SRD search. It will be a little work, but you can certainly get more value out of them.

And what’s the deal with the Mythic rules? Is a mythic 1st level character more powerful than a normal 1st level character? Do mythic characters and normal characters exist on Golarion at the same time?

Im not a fan of it myself, but it is a sort of epic level bolt on that happens as you level 1-20 instead of after level 20. I dont know how Golarion includes mythic characters. Though, the adventure path Wrath of the Righteous uses those rules.

Speaking of adventure paths, I'd say the biggest reason to convert is the plethora of published campaigns for PF1. I have enjoyed many of them and would run again.

Thank you

You're welcome.

 

[billd91]

Probably one of the biggest, most jarring differences you would encounter is the weapon-sizing thing. That was a pretty big departure that 3.5 made from 3.0. Otherwise, much of it does systematize things a little better and, for PF specifically, add a few features to make the classes work a little better (particularly the paladin and ranger).
I'd seriously consider picking up the first Bestiary so you have it as a reference with the monster modification rules and ability glossary in one place, but if you're OK with using d20PFSRD, the rest of the bestiaries are dispensable.
I've run a campaign with the Mythic Rules. Not that great a fan, I have to say. It adds a lot of complexity and is completely dispensable.

As far as whether it's compelling to go to PF1 from D&D 3.0 or not, that's really up to you. It'll make using PF APs a bit better since they were mostly written with PF1 in mind.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Pathfinder isn't any less complex than 3.0, its just a little bit less "janky". If you're used to and happy with 3.0, there's no need to switch over.

 

[amethal]

In my experience, the GameMastery Guide is basically a book of "extras," in that while it does have some advice, it puts a large degree of concern toward areas of play that are somewhat outside the norm. For instance, it has rules for chases, for drug addiction, for madness and insanity, for haunts (which are presented as being sort of like traps rather than creatures), etc.

In terms of the Bestiaries...you can use your existing ones fairly well, if you don't mind the occasional minor issue coming up as per what's listed above. Of course, given that everything Paizo made for Pathfinder is available online for free (and legally), you can easily avail yourselves of their Bestiaries (click on the "sources" tab in the left to look at things on a per-book basis, albeit broken down by product line) if you want.

As for the Mythic rules, those were Paizo's answer to "epic level" stuff. The difference is that Paizo didn't want to have characters gain levels above 20, so they invented what was basically a parallel progression chart. "Mythic tiers" are something characters can gain alongside levels in a class, granting a lot of extra power, along with abilities which are designed to complement and improve their standard class abilities.

Paizo does like their haunts. They seem to pop up in most of the adventure paths. As a GM, I love them; as a player, not so much ...

I've been using Archives of Nethys for years, and I'd never thought to click on the "sources" option so see what it does, so thank you for that!

The Mythic rules are, of course, completely broken and I've never dared introduce them into my games (apart from the odd monster). But they are an interesting way of having a third way of character progression (after XP and gold/gear). I sometimes wonder whether I could use them as a basis for Birthright style bloodlines, but I've never got around to it.

 

[Shardstone]

This is like a ww2 soldier being found in a jungle that still thinks the war is ongoing

 

[BigZebra]

I will have to say that while Pathfinder 1 streamlined many things (skills, grapple, reigned in some polymorph/summon spells, etc.), they made the class design a bit more complex IMO. Many classes are full or stuff you need to track, and does feel a bit fiddly. Now that can be both a pro and con depending on your (and especially your players) point of view. Also they made feat chains even deeper.

So i will have to say, that if you're looking for a simpler 3e, PF1 isn't really were I'd go.

Regarding the mythic stuff: PF1 is already a broken game above 10th level, and mythic makes it even more bonkers. You might like it though.

 

[Alzrius]

I've been using Archives of Nethys for years, and I'd never thought to click on the "sources" option so see what it does, so thank you for that!

That option does seem oddly easy to overlook, doesn't it? I only stumbled onto it a few years ago myself.

The Mythic rules are, of course, completely broken and I've never dared introduce them into my games (apart from the odd monster). But they are an interesting way of having a third way of character progression (after XP and gold/gear). I sometimes wonder whether I could use them as a basis for Birthright style bloodlines, but I've never got around to it.

One thing I recommend to everyone trying out the mythic rules is to use Legendary Games' Mythic Solutions (affiliate link), which is a product that exists solely to patch up the most broken parts of the rules for mythic PCs (though if you already own Legendary Games' Mythic Hero's Handbook, you already have this content). It's notable that Mythic Solutions is, if I recall correctly, written by Jason Nelson, who was also one of the people who worked on the mythic rules in the first place.

 

[payn]

Paizo does like their haunts. They seem to pop up in most of the adventure paths. As a GM, I love them; as a player, not so much ...

I so wish they would make an AP where the PCs are ghost busters going around putting haunts to rest.