A couple of questions on 4E Immortal design

[Axolotl]

Hey.
I've been playing around with the 4th Edition system for while especially in it's relation to Immortal gaming and I had a few questions about how it would work exactly.

The first is that when playing around with the rules for Immortals I found that several of the concepts that I would consider important to the idea of Immortals were juxtaposed to 4th editions design. For example the idea of followers and the concept of investing XP (or QP) in the creation of magical items. My first instinct was to just put them back in but I just wondered what your interpretation would be.

My second question is somewhat similar, one of the ideas I always liked in 3rd edition was the idea of alternatives to godhood but still being on an immortal power-level, say an Akalich for example. Now they work much better as monsters in 4th than they did in 3rd (less of the whole immunity rock paper scissors) but with 4th edition having less mechanically distinct classes I don't know how well they would work as player options since ideally they would function in a significantly different and distinct manner.

Lastly just for fun I was thinking about taking the Throne of Bloodstone conversion and converting it into 4th edition. I wasn't able to decide if it work best as and epic tier adventure or an exalted tier adventure. I could see it work as either but I'm not sure which would work best.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey.

Howdy Axolotl matey!

I've been playing around with the 4th Edition system for while especially in it's relation to Immortal gaming and I had a few questions about how it would work exactly.

Fire away. I pretty much know how exactly I'll be treating Demigods (Legendary Tier). But as regards Gods (Immortal Tier), I have an issue with allowing them to tap the dimensions - I probably will though, the secondary problem then being what do I do with the Sidereal Tier - but given how far away that is from now I'll worry about that (if and) when I get there.

The first is that when playing around with the rules for Immortals I found that several of the concepts that I would consider important to the idea of Immortals were juxtaposed to 4th editions design. For example the idea of followers and the concept of investing XP (or QP) in the creation of magical items. My first instinct was to just put them back in but I just wondered what your interpretation would be.

Its a good point. The way I see it though, by default I don't know if QP will be the basic building blocks of immortality anymore. I have tied immortality to level directly, so having a seperate system for divinity is unnecessary.

That said, I think people in a more 'realistic' (if thats the word) campaign, or at least realistic as in time frames, will probably use the Worship Point System, rather than EXP.

However, how many people will want that time frame is unknown, probably not too many, players will want to progress at the same rate as levels 1-30, so play twice a month and get to Overgod in 2-3 years!

My second question is somewhat similar, one of the ideas I always liked in 3rd edition was the idea of alternatives to godhood but still being on an immortal power-level, say an Akalich for example. Now they work much better as monsters in 4th than they did in 3rd (less of the whole immunity rock paper scissors) but with 4th edition having less mechanically distinct classes I don't know how well they would work as player options since ideally they would function in a significantly different and distinct manner.

Personally I see Akalich being an extension of the (Lich) Epic Destiny.

I don't think characters need to be Demigods (although that Epic Destiny gets a lot of following).

Epic Destinies
Astral - Demigod (might create my own called Exarch) or Duke of Hell
Elemental - Elementar
Abyssal - Demon Lord
Shadowfell - Various Undead Types (Death Knight, Lich, Vampire, Mummy, Wraith...could be some cool variant ideas from the Vampire Bestiary) or Daemon Master
Temporal - Ethnarch
Interdimensional - Rift Keeper
etc.

Lastly just for fun I was thinking about taking the Throne of Bloodstone conversion and converting it into 4th edition. I wasn't able to decide if it work best as and epic tier adventure or an exalted tier adventure. I could see it work as either but I'm not sure which would work best.

Funnily enough about a month ago (when I got the Prince of Undeath 4E adventure - which looks pretty good) I did some brainstorming on my version, just to see how I would convert it.

Some elements depend upon how you change (or if you change) Orcus at all - the 4E version is pretty good, but then that caps the adventure for about Level 30...and with about 13 encounters in each part, you are looking at a 3 Level spread at best 28-29 (Castle Perilous, Against Zhenghi on Toril) and 29-30 (Against Orcus in the Abyss).

Boosting Orcus to greater power in 4E would be as simple as a 5 Level power-up. Then of course you would want to reset the adventure for a 33-35 Level spread.

But don't worry, my Against the Reptile God adventure will be cool. I've set it up so that you can sort of play to the end with uber, min/maxed Level 30 characters but they will almost certainly get wiped.

 

[Axolotl]

Howdy Axolotl matey!

Hey Upper_Krust!

Fire away. I pretty much know how exactly I'll be treating Demigods (Legendary Tier). But as regards Gods (Immortal Tier), I have an issue with allowing them to tap the dimensions - I probably will though, the secondary problem then being what do I do with the Sidereal Tier - but given how far away that is from now I'll worry about that (if and) when I get there.

Well hopefully you'll get there before 5th edition. I would note that most of my questions arose from trying to create my own immortal rules for 4th edition.

Its a good point. The way I see it though, by default I don't know if QP will be the basic building blocks of immortality anymore. I have tied immortality to level directly, so having a seperate system for divinity is unnecessary.

Well I was mainly using QP as XP post 30th level. However I changed the way QP was gained to how it was in IH 3rd edition, interestingly enough for immortal PC's I found that QP was still gained in the same way generally. Discounting QP from worship (which I never felt many PC would focus on) Power obviously works the same way but gaining QP for events or via soul objects and apertures worked identically to the quest XP if spaced correctly.

My main problem here was when creating rules for immortals I found I was basically just re-introducing concepts from 3rd edition which had been removed (Magic item crafting, epic spellcasting, summoning etc). However these elements worked much better for Immortal gaming and the lack of them work hurt the system in my view but on the other hand I don't want introduce something that was consciously left out of the system. I was just wondering how you would interpret the system.

That said, I think people in a more 'realistic' (if thats the word) campaign, or at least realistic as in time frames, will probably use the Worship Point System, rather than EXP.

I always felt the worship system was to slow to be honest, it felt somewhat clunky for PCs to deal especially when the option of murdering outsiders was avalible. I'd certainly want to see it in 4th edition but I'd prefer it somewhat simplified.

However, how many people will want that time frame is unknown, probably not too many, players will want to progress at the same rate as levels 1-30, so play twice a month and get to Overgod in 2-3 years!

I don't think that's as ridiculous as it may seem. If you're questing/fighting that much then either:
A) There's a long "off-screen" downtime between quests, since gods in DnD spend most of their time sitting around observing things I don't feel as if much would be lost if the players are skipping centuries at a time between sessions, meaning that the 2-3 years real time represent millenia of game time.
B) The other option of course is that it's some form of apocalypse/Ragnarok is going on in which case a fast Immortal to Sidereal turnover is somewhat justified.

Personally I see Akalich being an extension of the (Lich) Epic Destiny.

I don't think characters need to be Demigods (although that Epic Destiny gets a lot of following).

I was thinking of it more from a mechanical point of view. Non-Deity (but still immortal power level) characters should function differently, however I'm not confidant the 4th edition system supports such mechanical diversity.

Funnily enough about a month ago (when I got the Prince of Undeath 4E adventure - which looks pretty good) I did some brainstorming on my version, just to see how I would convert it.

Is it any good? I'm always eager for epic material for any system but most of 4th editions published adventures have been underwhelming.

[qutoe]Some elements depend upon how you change (or if you change) Orcus at all - the 4E version is pretty good, but then that caps the adventure for about Level 30...and with about 13 encounters in each part, you are looking at a 3 Level spread at best 28-29 (Castle Perilous, Against Zhenghi on Toril) and 29-30 (Against Orcus in the Abyss).[/quote]I was more interpreting it as a campaign that would run 24-30 using the standard Orcus rules.

Boosting Orcus to greater power in 4E would be as simple as a 5 Level power-up. Then of course you would want to reset the adventure for a 33-35 Level spread.

I was more imagining Orcus as the last fight for 40th level characters with his death bringing them to true godhood.

The thing is I can think of several ideas for both Epic/Exalted versions of H4 but I'm not sure which would work best, I'm attracted to the idea of Zhenghi as the last fight for mortals ascending to 31st level to take on the Abyss, but that means you'd need a lot of Abyss to fight.

But don't worry, my Against the Reptile God adventure will be cool. I've set it up so that you can sort of play to the end with uber, min/maxed Level 30 characters but they will almost certainly get wiped.

Yeah but the operative word there is "will". I have no doubt it will be cool my concern is that it won't be cool for a long time due to the distinct flaw of not existing.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Epic Destinies are fairly simple mechanically - only a couple powers really - so creating new ones shouldn't be TOO much of a pain.

So would 'Lich' be the epic destiny and 'Akalich' be an extension - and if so where do Demiliches fit in? A Lich seems to be a bit too 'weak' or minor (cosmic significance wise) to be an Epic Destiny... since Liches could be as low as 11th level characters in 3.x ... maybe Demilich should be the Epic Destiny? Or something?



Epic Spellcasting should probably be based off the ritual rules. And no reason to limit it to Legendary+; Epic Tier characters should be able to do at least a little of it. (And that way the rules could be used before the Legendary Tier comes out.) Rough ideas: you pick an existing ritual to use as a "seed" in the same way epic spell seeds were used in 3.x epic. Then you can modify it in the following ways, "paying" for modifications with levels, time, or cost:

Reduced Cost: +2 levels for -25% cost. So 75% original cost = +2 levels, 50% original cost = +4 levels, 25% original = +6 levels. You can't go below 25% of the original cost. (So even though you have to be 21st level to use Epic Spellcasting, you can't cast Silence - a level 1 ritual - for free.)

Increased Effect: Add a bonus to any check made as part of the ritual (such as the Heal check for Cure Disease). +1 level and +50% original cost per point of bonus, maximum +10 (if Epic tier), +20 (if Legendary tier), etc. So an epic cleric casting Epic Cure Disease can get a +10 bonus on the Heal check by making it a Level 16 Ritual with a Component Cost of 900 gp (150 gp base + 75 gp per point of bonus); if he applies Reduced Cost as well he can get it down as low as 225 gp, provided he is Level 22.

Different Key Skill: Change the key skill to another. +10 levels and x10 original cost, time doubled.


...just super-rough ideas, no clue if they are at all balanced, especially Different Key Skill... any other ideas for possibilities?

U_K's Dimensional Magic will be another form of epic spellcasting, but I don't think it should replace 3.x Epic Spellcasting but be something else entirely. (U_K, do you have the other forms of Dimensional Magic figured out? If so, will they go on the website or be in the Immortals Handbook Legendary Tier?)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Upper_Krust!

Hola amigo!

Well hopefully you'll get there before 5th edition. I would note that most of my questions arose from trying to create my own immortal rules for 4th edition.

We can but hope.

Well I was mainly using QP as XP post 30th level.

I have contemplated that approach, but I think you might just be changing nomenclature for its own sake.

However I changed the way QP was gained to how it was in IH 3rd edition, interestingly enough for immortal PC's I found that QP was still gained in the same way generally. Discounting QP from worship (which I never felt many PC would focus on) Power obviously works the same way but gaining QP for events or via soul objects and apertures worked identically to the quest XP if spaced correctly.

I think the main way to get players interested in Worship Points is to have that become the only source for Divinity.

My main problem here was when creating rules for immortals I found I was basically just re-introducing concepts from 3rd edition which had been removed (Magic item crafting, epic spellcasting, summoning etc). However these elements worked much better for Immortal gaming and the lack of them work hurt the system in my view but on the other hand I don't want introduce something that was consciously left out of the system. I was just wondering how you would interpret the system.

I think 4E has summoning (Shaman class in PHB2). I don't see Epic Spellcasting being relevant any longer.

I always felt the worship system was to slow to be honest, it felt somewhat clunky for PCs to deal especially when the option of murdering outsiders was avalible. I'd certainly want to see it in 4th edition but I'd prefer it somewhat simplified.

As I said above, if you want to get players interested in courting worship, you probably need to make it the only source of divinity.

I don't think that's as ridiculous as it may seem. If you're questing/fighting that much then either:

A) There's a long "off-screen" downtime between quests, since gods in DnD spend most of their time sitting around observing things I don't feel as if much would be lost if the players are skipping centuries at a time between sessions, meaning that the 2-3 years real time represent millenia of game time.

Seems to me that approach totally invalidates campaign worlds after every adventure.

B) The other option of course is that it's some form of apocalypse/Ragnarok is going on in which case a fast Immortal to Sidereal turnover is somewhat justified.

I think you just have to suck it up that PCs are on the fast track to overgodliness and hope they enjoy the ride.

I was thinking of it more from a mechanical point of view. Non-Deity (but still immortal power level) characters should function differently, however I'm not confidant the 4th edition system supports such mechanical diversity.

I'm not totally sure if, why and when they should be different.

The party might include a Demigod, Demilich, Demon Prince and a Dragon. But should they necessarily require different mechanics beyond already having different abilities and powers and items. I don't think so.

Is it any good? I'm always eager for epic material for any system but most of 4th editions published adventures have been underwhelming.

It was certainly better than I expected. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of personalities in the book. I mean Orcus plan basically involves a bunch of no name subordinates (okay, one or two are named) who don't seem very high up the chain of command.

On the plus side, the new monsters are pretty cool like the Fathomal - creatures from the bottom of the Abyss.

I think it does show up some of the faults of a saga-length campaign adventure, in that diversity is going to be an issue - part of the reason I decided to make my adventures 'quasi-delves'. I'd rather have multiple mini-themes than one overarching major theme.

I was more imagining Orcus as the last fight for 40th level characters with his death bringing them to true godhood.

Then you have a bit of a problem because as I peg immortality you probably want to be facing off against an Elder One at about Level 40. That said, you could always make Orcus a Greater God and give him a large boost for being on his home plane - thats something I am still mulling over. I don't think a Level boost works in that context however, as boosting Orcus simply makes the disparity between him and his servants greater - meaning the fights leading up to Orcus will be easier, and the fight with Orcus will be harder.

The thing is I can think of several ideas for both Epic/Exalted versions of H4 but I'm not sure which would work best, I'm attracted to the idea of Zhenghi as the last fight for mortals ascending to 31st level to take on the Abyss, but that means you'd need a lot of Abyss to fight.

Exactly. I don't know if its something you necessarily want to follow one after the other. Might be better to say, thwart Zhenghi's plans, then later on (after they have levelled up a bit more) take on Orcus himself.

Yeah but the operative word there is "will". I have no doubt it will be cool my concern is that it won't be cool for a long time due to the distinct flaw of not existing.

You never know, might be out before you know it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Epic Destinies are fairly simple mechanically - only a couple powers really - so creating new ones shouldn't be TOO much of a pain.

So would 'Lich' be the epic destiny and 'Akalich' be an extension - and if so where do Demiliches fit in? A Lich seems to be a bit too 'weak' or minor (cosmic significance wise) to be an Epic Destiny... since Liches could be as low as 11th level characters in 3.x ... maybe Demilich should be the Epic Destiny? Or something?

Yes. When I thought about it again, Demilich seemed a better fit...although the character wouldn't becomea full Demilich until 30th probably.

Epic Spellcasting should probably be based off the ritual rules. And no reason to limit it to Legendary+; Epic Tier characters should be able to do at least a little of it. (And that way the rules could be used before the Legendary Tier comes out.) Rough ideas: you pick an existing ritual to use as a "seed" in the same way epic spell seeds were used in 3.x epic. Then you can modify it in the following ways, "paying" for modifications with levels, time, or cost:

Reduced Cost: +2 levels for -25% cost. So 75% original cost = +2 levels, 50% original cost = +4 levels, 25% original = +6 levels. You can't go below 25% of the original cost. (So even though you have to be 21st level to use Epic Spellcasting, you can't cast Silence - a level 1 ritual - for free.)

Increased Effect: Add a bonus to any check made as part of the ritual (such as the Heal check for Cure Disease). +1 level and +50% original cost per point of bonus, maximum +10 (if Epic tier), +20 (if Legendary tier), etc. So an epic cleric casting Epic Cure Disease can get a +10 bonus on the Heal check by making it a Level 16 Ritual with a Component Cost of 900 gp (150 gp base + 75 gp per point of bonus); if he applies Reduced Cost as well he can get it down as low as 225 gp, provided he is Level 22.

Different Key Skill: Change the key skill to another. +10 levels and x10 original cost, time doubled.

...just super-rough ideas, no clue if they are at all balanced, especially Different Key Skill... any other ideas for possibilities?

At the moment I am wondering where the lines blur between Level 31+ abilities and Level 31+ Rituals.

U_K's Dimensional Magic will be another form of epic spellcasting, but I don't think it should replace 3.x Epic Spellcasting but be something else entirely. (U_K, do you have the other forms of Dimensional Magic figured out? If so, will they go on the website or be in the Immortals Handbook Legendary Tier?)

I'm sort of concentrating on 4E now, so Dimensional Magic will just have to take a back seat for now. But when things get a little less hectic (in a month or two) ask me again and I'll see about getting some more ideas typed up and on the website.

 

[Axolotl]

Hola amigo!

Hi!

I have contemplated that approach, but I think you might just be changing nomenclature for its own sake.

To a point, however there is a fundemental difference in QP and XP both how they're gained and what the represent.

I think the main way to get players interested in Worship Points is to have that become the only source for Divinity.

While I see the advantages of such a system I feel many players would want a more dynamic system of advancement.

I think 4E has summoning (Shaman class in PHB2). I don't see Epic Spellcasting being relevant any longer.

Sadly I don't own many books beyond the core. As for epic spellcasting, the ability to create new spells is something Immortals should have and something that helps build an epic feel to a game.

Seems to me that approach totally invalidates campaign worlds after every adventure.

Yes but the only other ways to avoid the game becomeing mainly the tedium of managing a divine estate are to have the universe constantly being attacked by ever larger threats or to embrace some of the wackyness of the IM modules style. And I see 4th edition as having probelms with both of those (mor on this later).

I'm not totally sure if, why and when they should be different.

The party might include a Demigod, Demilich, Demon Prince and a Dragon. But should they necessarily require different mechanics beyond already having different abilities and powers and items. I don't think so.

I suppose.

This originated with me reading an idea from the 2e Dreamlands box (I think) of a plane called "Hyper-Reality" which was to the prime what the prime was to dreamlands. Beings from this plane ere on par with gods when dealing with the standard cosmology.

The idea was that PC of such beings would be like mortals but with immortal level stats. The problem was making them distinct enough to justify their existence but keeping them similar enough not to unbalance the game.

It was certainly better than I expected. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of personalities in the book. I mean Orcus plan basically involves a bunch of no name subordinates (okay, one or two are named) who don't seem very high up the chain of command.

On the plus side, the new monsters are pretty cool like the Fathomal - creatures from the bottom of the Abyss.

I'll keep an eye out for it sounds cool.

I think it does show up some of the faults of a saga-length campaign adventure, in that diversity is going to be an issue - part of the reason I decided to make my adventures 'quasi-delves'. I'd rather have multiple mini-themes than one overarching major theme.

It can be a problem but I think 4th would handle it better than 3rd did. For my hypothetical Bloodstone conversion I wanted to keep everything varied as much as possible so instead of encountering merely demons and undead you would occasionally get something a little different. For example you could encounter an Epic angel that had been driven insane by Orcus after being sent to investigate (it would be a conversion of the 3e Kyriotates).

Then you have a bit of a problem because as I peg immortality you probably want to be facing off against an Elder One at about Level 40. That said, you could always make Orcus a Greater God and give him a large boost for being on his home plane - thats something I am still mulling over. I don't think a Level boost works in that context however, as boosting Orcus simply makes the disparity between him and his servants greater - meaning the fights leading up to Orcus will be easier, and the fight with Orcus will be harder.

The background I would use would be Orcus cllaiming the Seed of Evil from the Abyss meaning that he has empowered himself and can control and empower all the inhabitants of the abyss. Withe Orcus as a 41st level Solo (the max of a greater god I think) backed up by some servants and a few debuffs on the players I think it could be a suitable challenge.

The real problem is bridgeing the gap between Zhenghi and Orcus, although Mob monsters would help there.

Exactly. I don't know if its something you necessarily want to follow one after the other. Might be better to say, thwart Zhenghi's plans, then later on (after they have levelled up a bit more) take on Orcus himself.

But the two logically follow on.

You never know, might be out before you know it.

Yay?

There are just 2 questions now:

A)Are there any changes you would make to the monster design guidelines in the DMG for post 30th level monsters? And are the tables on your website still modern? Oh and do you have any rules fo Macro/Mob style monsters yet?

B)A little more esoteric. Looking at the 4th edition rules there seems very little room for immortal adventure. Most monsters of 31st or greater level are unqiue and there's no real area suitable for more powerful monsters. For the IH 4e are you going to create a new "stomping grounds" for immortals, level up the whole setting or just insert Uber-Monster enclaves into the gaps?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi!

Hello again!

To a point, however there is a fundemental difference in QP and XP both how they're gained and what the represent.

Well there is a difference, but given what you have said, I don't think that difference will be very satisfying for players (don't gain QP from fighting non immortals, nor from quests and so forth, nor skill challenges).

While I see the advantages of such a system I feel many players would want a more dynamic system of advancement.

Exactly, which is why a change to QP is a change in name only for 4E.

Sadly I don't own many books beyond the core.

Well I am sure the basic mechanics of how summoning is handled float about these forums. If you can't find them within a day or so, come back and I'll give you the basics.

As for epic spellcasting, the ability to create new spells is something Immortals should have and something that helps build an epic feel to a game.

Well I have no problem with immortals creating new Rituals. I just don't see them creating new powers for themselves.

Yes but the only other ways to avoid the game becomeing mainly the tedium of managing a divine estate are to have the universe constantly being attacked by ever larger threats or to embrace some of the wackyness of the IM modules style. And I see 4th edition as having probelms with both of those (mor on this later).

Well I think thats one approach (Kill, Loot, Repeat), but I think the Worship Points side of things is perfect for games which want to add political aspects.

I suppose.

This originated with me reading an idea from the 2e Dreamlands box (I think) of a plane called "Hyper-Reality" which was to the prime what the prime was to dreamlands. Beings from this plane ere on par with gods when dealing with the standard cosmology.

The idea was that PC of such beings would be like mortals but with immortal level stats. The problem was making them distinct enough to justify their existence but keeping them similar enough not to unbalance the game.

So basically how to cheat...in a balanced way.

I'll keep an eye out for it sounds cool.

You might be able to pick one up cheap on ebay.

It can be a problem but I think 4th would handle it better than 3rd did. For my hypothetical Bloodstone conversion I wanted to keep everything varied as much as possible so instead of encountering merely demons and undead you would occasionally get something a little different. For example you could encounter an Epic angel that had been driven insane by Orcus after being sent to investigate (it would be a conversion of the 3e Kyriotates
The background I would use would be Orcus cllaiming the Seed of Evil from the Abyss meaning that he has empowered himself and can control and empower all the inhabitants of the abyss.

Not sure if its a coincidence, but thats the basic plot of the Prince of Undeath module.

Withe Orcus as a 41st level Solo (the max of a greater god I think)

Thats correct.

backed up by some servants and a few debuffs on the players I think it could be a suitable challenge.

Problem A. Who are these servants and what levels are they?
Problem B. Debuffs are never really a fun idea (at least not for anything more than an encounter or two just to scare the players).

The real problem is bridgeing the gap between Zhenghi and Orcus, although Mob monsters would help there.

But the two logically follow on.

Based on the story as currently written...but you can always rewrite the story of course.

Yay?

There are just 2 questions now:

I see 4 questions...

A)Are there any changes you would make to the monster design guidelines in the DMG for post 30th level monsters?

No, but I think I am going to have to introduce a 'Divine Expertise' feat/divine ability at each new tier just to compensate for the Defense disparity. I thought I could rectify that with ability score bonuses but that was recently illustrated to me that it will create more problems than it solves.

And are the tables on your website still modern?

Which ones? I know there is a slight flaw in the ability score bonuses on the extended Damage Tables once you get to about Level 60+.

Oh and do you have any rules fo Macro/Mob style monsters yet?

Those rules are in the Vampure Bestiary, they are about 75% determined at this juncture.

B)A little more esoteric. Looking at the 4th edition rules there seems very little room for immortal adventure. Most monsters of 31st or greater level are unqiue and there's no real area suitable for more powerful monsters.

Don't worry, I have a good mix of minions, monsters, elites, solos and unique characters in my books...starting with the Vampire Bestiary.

For the IH 4e are you going to create a new "stomping grounds" for immortals, level up the whole setting or just insert Uber-Monster enclaves into the gaps?

Both. I don't really think the settings need that much levelling up, there are always areas of the Abyss more dangerous than others, I see no reason why thats can't be the same for other planes. Monsters can always 'escape' from their confines, and maybe they were imprisoned with their servants.

I see the Legendary Tier seeing a lot of action with regards various Divine Realms. The Immortal Tier will really have to kick it up a notch with regards cosmic convicts, time travel, the Far Realm and the general fate of the Universe. While the Sidereal stuff is just going to get crazy with higher dimensions, alternate realities and so forth.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Both. I don't really think the settings need that much levelling up, there are always areas of the Abyss more dangerous than others, I see no reason why thats can't be the same for other planes. Monsters can always 'escape' from their confines, and maybe they were imprisoned with their servants.

I see the Legendary Tier seeing a lot of action with regards various Divine Realms. The Immortal Tier will really have to kick it up a notch with regards cosmic convicts, time travel, the Far Realm and the general fate of the Universe. While the Sidereal stuff is just going to get crazy with higher dimensions, alternate realities and so forth.

For Epic and Legendary Tier one interesting option would be 'deathworlds' - areas with super-deadly ecologies. Where Ancient Red Dragons would scurry and hide from the *real* top predators. (Epic/neotic dragons, or at least some types of them, might be natives of a place like this that later spread throughout the universes.) Inspiration: Harry Harrison's Deathworld, Alan Dean Foster's Midworld (which includes some predators that would give a Tarrasque a run for its money) .... actually several Alan Dean Foster novels are set on planets like this, but Midworld's probably the nastiest one of all.

'Deathworlds' could be alternate Material Planes (or other planets on the same Material Plane, depending on how big the Material Plane is), really nasty layers of the Abyss (where even the demon lords and monarchs fear to intrude), demiplanes at the border of the Far Realm where mutagenic energies dominate the ecosystem and turn it into a Lovecraftian nightmare, or whatever.

 

[Axolotl]

Hello again!

Hi!

Well there is a difference, but given what you have said, I don't think that difference will be very satisfying for players (don't gain QP from fighting non immortals, nor from quests and so forth, nor skill challenges).

But if they're already getting advancement via worship I don't see why they need to benefit from hose thing except in an in-game capacity.

Well I have no problem with immortals creating new Rituals. I just don't see them creating new powers for themselves.

Well thats what the epic spell system was in 3e (well you could use it for direct damage spells but if you did you sucked). It was a system for creating rituals and 4e would benefit from such a thing especially post 30th level.

Well I think thats one approach (Kill, Loot, Repeat), but I think the Worship Points side of things is perfect for games which want to add political aspects.

Well the thing is I don't see how advancement works without some sort of questing. Sure you could go out and get worshipers as your primary goal but then you're playing as advertising executives rather than adventurers.

So basically how to cheat...in a balanced way.

How is it cheating exactly?

Not sure if its a coincidence, but thats the basic plot of the Prince of Undeath module.

It's a coincidence in so far as it's a fairly obvious idea, I just used the handy super-weapon 4e had lying around in the background. I guess that in Prince of Undeath Orcus doesn't actually take control of the whole abyss does he?

Although now I think about it this does mean that adapting Bloodstone to 35-40th level would be the better option if WotC has one for 30th level.

Problem A. Who are these servants and what levels are they?

Probably a pair of 39th level elites (undead primordials) and some 40th level minions (Orcus' new demon master race).

Problem B. Debuffs are never really a fun idea (at least not for anything more than an encounter or two just to scare the players).

Well it would only be for one encounter and not a serious nerf on the players, ideally something that can easily be played around but if ignored has the potential to cause serious problems.

Based on the story as currently written...but you can always rewrite the story of course.

Of course but rewriting it too much and it wouldn't be a conversion.

I see 4 questions...

They're two questions that look like four questions.

No, but I think I am going to have to introduce a 'Divine Expertise' feat/divine ability at each new tier just to compensate for the Defense disparity. I thought I could rectify that with ability score bonuses but that was recently illustrated to me that it will create more problems than it solves.

Ok, I was just checking since I didn't want to stat out a ton of monsters then have the design rules change meaning I'd have to stat them all again.

Which ones? I know there is a slight flaw in the ability score bonuses on the extended Damage Tables once you get to about Level 60+.

The extended damage and conversion tables.

Those rules are in the Vampure Bestiary, they are about 75% determined at this juncture.

Back to waiting then. How familiar.

Don't worry, I have a good mix of minions, monsters, elites, solos and unique characters in my books...starting with the Vampire Bestiary.

It's more a conceptual issue more than anything else. 4th editions setting has 18 gods some demon lords and the primordials. and that's about it for post 30th level. Using these as guidelines there's very little room for new monsters. The ELH for example has basically 3 (maybe 7 counting the devastation vermin) monsters of suitable power. And it's a much tighter setting than 3e had, adding in too many ultra beings would somewhat hurt the setting.

Both. I don't really think the settings need that much levelling up, there are always areas of the Abyss more dangerous than others, I see no reason why thats can't be the same for other planes. Monsters can always 'escape' from their confines, and maybe they were imprisoned with their servants.

I see the Legendary Tier seeing a lot of action with regards various Divine Realms. The Immortal Tier will really have to kick it up a notch with regards cosmic convicts, time travel, the Far Realm and the general fate of the Universe. While the Sidereal stuff is just going to get crazy with higher dimensions, alternate realities and so forth.

Yes but there's only so much the setting can hold without losing verisimilitude, like I said 4e has a fairly tight setting one based around game-play, meaning that there are areas designed for certain levels of play (prime=heroic, underdark=paragon, planes=epic). While you certainly can fit in Legendary tier monsters into the planes it feels like it would become somewhat silly to explain why they aren't playing major roles in the cosmos. It's a similar problem that sidereal level play had in 3e.

My answer has been to just dump most of the core cosmology replacing it with something more like the Gold Box stuff.