D&D (2024) 75 Feats -- not nearly enough

[Maxperson]

maybe,

but does the game needs lvl8 and above feats?

100%. Yes.

Even if only 10% of games reach 10th level or higher, that's 10% of millions, which is a whole lot of people who need that sort of thing in the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Does the game need feats? I have always allowed them when running 5e but also have done some one shots where no feats were taken and nothing was missed.

Feats are needed in the same way that fighters, clerics, wizards, etc. are needed. They aren't. None of them are needed, but they do make the game a whole lot more fun.

I don't want a return to 3.x and 4e where feats dominated the game and it was about "builds" instead of actual character.

This was very table dependent. The games I played in had the players choosing feats to match their character concept. They were character driven choices and the vast array of feats, prestige classes, races, classes, etc. meant that we could create almost any concept we could envision. 5e is far inferior to 3e in that regard.

Yes, you had groups power gamers focused around builds, but that wasn't a problem. Power gamers should have stuff to do as well.

 

[Horwath]

Power gamers should have stuff to do as well.

power gaming is never a real problem.
unless the player wants to PvP with it, but that is another problem that is solvable other way.

power gamers simply know the game better.

If they want to play Legolas, they will scour the 37 books to find best class(es), feats and prestige class(es) to make that concept work.
only problem it can arise if they find some game breaking combo and do not want to work with DM to "normalize" that combo or ability.

If anything D&D playtesting should be run exclusively by powergamers, because the game needs to get broken 1st in order to get fixed.

 

[Argyle King]

Nor am I. Good.

True! And the 2014 PHB had feats like that. Good thing that's not what this thread is discussing!

True, if by "currently" you re referrning to the 2014 PHB. What about the playtest feats, though, which are the only insight we have about the 2024 PHB? Are there still only a "handful"? If so, which ones?

There are still some feats I think I won't have characters take, but I'm not sure there are ones no one will take.

Which specific feats in the playtest materials make you think this?

I don't have enough information about the 2024 game to know how the feats will function.

Even so, I posit two things:
1) a better solution would be to not have ability score advancement compete with feat choice
2) 5E characters don't have very many opportunities to choose feats

 

[Neonchameleon]

maybe,

but does the game needs lvl8 and above feats?

IMO no - but it does need L12 and above feats. Double dipping from the same pool should be fine as long as the feats are well written, but triple dipping across three separate tiers is a bit much.

That said I have no problem with the idea of a "wrapper feat" for level 12/16 that e.g. gives you a level 4 feat and a +1 ASI to a stat that isn't being increased by the level 4 feat. (This incidentally has the effect of massively opening up the feat landscape for your level 12 feat to things that don't synergise with what you'd normally do).

but having higher level feats "forces" players to take them instead of maybe cool low level feats

See the Wrapper Feats suggestion.

 

[bedir than]

power gaming is never a real problem.
unless the player wants to PvP with it, but that is another problem that is solvable other way.

power gamers simply know the game better.

If they want to play Legolas, they will scour the 37 books to find best class(es), feats and prestige class(es) to make that concept work.
only problem it can arise if they find some game breaking combo and do not want to work with DM to "normalize" that combo or ability.

If anything D&D playtesting should be run exclusively by powergamers, because the game needs to get broken 1st in order to get fixed.

Taking spotlight from their teammates because they're "better gamers" is a problem.

The game is built as a cooperative storytelling dice system. It should continue that.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Taking spotlight from their teammates because they're "better gamers" is a problem.

The game is built as a cooperative storytelling dice system. It should continue that.

The game was built as a hacked tabletop wargame and the mechanics have continued in that tradition. There is very very little in the D&D mechanics to encourage cooperative storytelling (and Inspiration is near-vestigial).

 

[Horwath]

Taking spotlight from their teammates because they're "better gamers" is a problem.

The game is built as a cooperative storytelling dice system. It should continue that.

that is not powergamer, that is spotlight hogger.

but sometimes those 2 overlap.

 

[bedir than]

The game was built as a hacked tabletop wargame and the mechanics have continued in that tradition. There is very very little in the D&D mechanics to encourage cooperative storytelling (and Inspiration is near-vestigial).

While presenting OD&D as a hacked wargame would be accurate, there's little evidence that's how 5e is played or presented.

Testing for 5e should reflect how modern gamers use it, not how power gamers wish it was

 

[Horwath]

While presenting OD&D as a hacked wargame would be accurate, there's little evidence that's how 5e is played or presented.

Testing for 5e should reflect how modern gamers use it, not how power gamers wish it was

combat part of D&D is a wargame, and it needs some kind of balance between character classes.

and roleplay can be whatever players want it to be.

in most RP situations rolls are not even required, social rolls are just shortcut for "cant be bothered to talk to NPC for 5 minutes."

Have an anecdote from 3.5e years ago:

friend wanted to hustle an NPC for info, rolls Diplomacy check: it's 24.

DM asks: well, how do you ask him?

Player: duh... 24!


and that is it, give results for Diplomacy of 24. You get your info dump.