D&D (2024) 5e vs Oe Cleric...

[Horwath]

It a poor decision, and even the explanation of "not overwhelming" new players is just condescending at best and insulting at worst.

all subclasses should start at 1st level, but 1st level features could be focused on subclass gained proficiencies, bonus spells known and ribbon features. Then more powerful features could be on levels 2 and/or 3.

 

[Steampunkette]

It a poor decision, and even the explanation of "not overwhelming" new players is just condescending at best and insulting at worst.

all subclasses should start at 1st level, but 1st level features could be focused on subclass gained proficiencies, bonus spells known and ribbon features. Then more powerful features could be on levels 2 and/or 3.

What would you say to having at level 1, for every class, a single Class-Defining and a single Subclass-Defining feature, with a Ribbon to wrap them up with?

So a Barbarian, as an example, would get their Rage, and their Subclass feature that either changes their rage or grants them some other thing they can do, and then the Barbarian's No-Armor as the ribbon?

Because let's face it, not having to buy armor at level 1 is a ribbon that the designers "Justify" by giving you less starting gold than Fighters and Paladins.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It a poor decision, and even the explanation of "not overwhelming" new players is just condescending at best and insulting at worst.

This is equally condescending.
My experience tells me otherwise and others have stated the same.

There are different kinds of new and older players. Having the choice at level 3 helps tremendeously.
I can see reasons for level 1 subclasses, but overall I prefer level 3.
Maybe level 2 would be my favourite though.

 

[Shiroiken]

It comes down to how you want to look at Subclasses. If it's an archetype, then it's something you might want to have at level 1, making all characters fully functional from level 1. If it's a customization option, then it's best at level 3 to allow for in game events to set you down a certain path.

As for the question of power source, this is where they need to discuss the gods more. Most gods should be able to provide for a large number of domains, meaning that you pick your deity at level 1, but your specialization/archetype comes later. Perhaps you're limited in choices (such as not accessing War Domain from the god of peace), but even if events push you towards something unavailable, you could become an apostate and abandon your god for another.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Clerics don't need a subclass at level 1 unless the subclass is their god, which it never was in 5e and won't be in 5.5. They have their faith at level 1. The specific boons they get from it come at level 3. The 5e era god-domain connection is so loose that it doesn't even make sense to limit domains they can choose based on their god.

It's warlocks where I don't understand a level 3 subclass. Sorcerers it also changes the subclass-lore relationship a bit (but I'm used to fantasy protagonists not having their powers fully express at the beginning of the story so I could live with a switch).

The divine caster whose 5e version I felt really needed a level 1 subclass was not the Cleric but the Paladin, who isn't really a Paladin until they swear an oath.

 

[tetrasodium]

Clerics don't need a subclass at level 1 unless the subclass is their god, which it never was in 5e and won't be in 5.5. They have their faith at level 1. The specific boons they get from it come at level 3. The 5e era god-domain connection is so loose that it doesn't even make sense to limit domains they can choose based on their god.

It's warlocks where I don't understand a level 3 subclass. Sorcerers it also changes the subclass-lore relationship a bit (but I'm used to fantasy protagonists not having their powers fully express at the beginning of the story so I could live with a switch).

The divine caster whose 5e version I felt really needed a level 1 subclass was not the Cleric but the Paladin, who isn't really a Paladin until they swear an oath.

Warlocks are easy tp explain being a level 3 fork... The first taste is free but a bit generic, once you've paid the price & proven your loyalty your more generic taste of power gets reforged with a bit of hands on care & attention from your patron With eldritch blast seeming to be going over to a class ability rather than cantrip they can have the subclass do a lot more to modify the basic ability.

 

[Shiroiken]

Clerics don't need a subclass at level 1 unless the subclass is their god, which it never was in 5e and won't be in 5.5. They have their faith at level 1. The specific boons they get from it come at level 3. The 5e era god-domain connection is so loose that it doesn't even make sense to limit domains they can choose based on their god.

It's warlocks where I don't understand a level 3 subclass. Sorcerers it also changes the subclass-lore relationship a bit (but I'm used to fantasy protagonists not having their powers fully express at the beginning of the story so I could live with a switch).

The divine caster whose 5e version I felt really needed a level 1 subclass was not the Cleric but the Paladin, who isn't really a Paladin until they swear an oath.

Warlock can work the same way as the cleric, but will require some significant redesign. At level 1 you still need to get your patron, which will provide some small bonus, then at level 3 your patron will give you some specialization. This is harder the more detailed they have the patrons (as they do now), but I suspect they will move toward more generic patrons for 1D&D. Instead of having a Fiend, Archfey, and the like, they might have a warrior, trickster, etc. On the plus side, this should help DMs fit them into their settings.

I have absolutely no idea how they're going to do sorcerers. My guess is the character has "innate magic" that develops into the subclass, but that seems... lame.

 

[CubicsRube]

See... THIS is some clever game design! You mind if I use this?

Which means making subclasses as bland and non-interactive with class features as is possible in order to ensure they're not bound to a given class... which I personally find bad design.

Like... If I make a Rogue Subclass that does not interact with -any- Rogue abilities whatsoever to make it available to ranger, bard, fighter, and other classes, it's just gonna feel one dimensional AF. 'Cause it can't interact with any of those class's features, either.

But it'd work for Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard because you can use spell-stuff since they all get it. MAYBE Paladin/Ranger, too.

Like the Life Domain wouldn't work cross-class because Wizards don't get Channel Divinity for the 6th level Preserve Life subclass feature, but the REST of the subclass would work for other caster classes.

Meanwhile if I did that in A5e I could at least make Martial cross-class features interact on Combat Traditions... but it'd still be pretty dull, all things considered.

Damn... now I kind of want to try a cross-class martial archetype for Martial Artistry... I feel like it could maybe work so long as the archetype granted and played off it's own features and improved or granted maneuvers/traditions/exertion...

I keep sounding like a shill, but Rob Schwalb did this years ago with shadow of the Demon Lord, and he wasn't the first. So it's hardly new. He worked on 5e as well so I presume it's an idea they discussed during it's initial development.

 

[mellored]

See... THIS is some clever game design! You mind if I use this?

4e had "sub-classes" available to everyone, some class specific ones, and a few specific to a race.

You actually got 2, the first at level 11, and the second at level 21. Though most of the 21+ would be better as epic boons.

But for example, the 4e dwarf subclass.

https://dnd4.fandom.com/

Dwarven Defender​

"The wrath of Hell can’t move me, but I can hammer you into place!"[MP:27]
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Dwarven Defender Path Features
Defensive Action (11th level): Whenever you spend an action point to take an extra action, you gain a +2 bonus to your AC and Fortitude until the end of your next turn.
Stalwart Defender (11th level): Whenever you are adjacent to at least one ally, you and adjacent allies gain a +1 bonus to AC, and all adjacent allies can reduce the distance they are moved by any pull, push, or slide by 1 square.
Roots of the Earth (16th level): The Stand Your Ground racial trait can reduce the distance you are moved by 5 squares.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I miss the idea of the partial subclass (3e PrCs or 4e subclasses). I don't want to go back to 3e's 2 level dips into six different classes but I would like 5 level sub class choices reflecting different plateaus as well as characters changing relative to each other on a group.