D&D 4E 4E PHB II & DMG II 1 year after release (and a new one every year after that)

[Eagle Prince]

Lets say I buy the PHB (and I don't DM, so that's basically all I get). Then four years later class X comes out in PHB5 that I want to try out. So I buy to PHB5, only to find out quite a few of the rules I need to play class X are in PHB 2-4. Maybe it won't be like that, but when they call them all Core, it maeks you wonder....

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

It may sound unabashedly Capitalist of me but game designers need to feed their family just as much as you or I.

False.

It is a widely-believed fact that successful game designers are breatharians.

Brad

 

[Vlos]

Just found this over on the DNDI thread of what is "known"...

D&D Insider
* Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines for a monthly fee greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription.
* Monthly fee $10/month (source: PDF handout)
* Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital "issues" monthly.
* This is the "D&D Online" section of Gleemax
* It contains a "Dungeon Master's Kit" that includes the following:
- dungeon builder (map tool)
- adventure builder
- PC generator
- other things (Source: Wizards forum post)
* "Character Generator"
- character sheets
- character visualizer (Source: Wizards forum post)
* "My Campaign"
* "My Character" (source: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905809)
* "D&D Game Table" (source: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905805)
* "Dungeon & Dragon Magazines" (source: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905804)

So, $120 a year to access DNDI. Which you will probably need to access to play the game properly... That is like buying 3-4 books a year. afterwhich I own. At the end of year, I have nothing to show now. Now books I can go look at on my shelf, that if for some reason I don't want to pay anymore, I can no longer play the game, because I no longer have access to all the new content they came out with after I bought my first PHB...

And you don't think they're not after money. I will guarentee that they Players handbook will be a Complete NEW Players Handbook every year. Not a PHB2.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So, $120 a year to access DNDI. Which you will probably need to access to play the game properly...

Except for the fact that you won't. I'm not sure how many more ways they can make it clear that the DNDI stuff consists of enhancements and optional tools.

I will guarentee that they Players handbook will be a Complete NEW Players Handbook every year. Not a PHB2.

So that when they referred to PHB2 and DMG2, they lied to us? And you're prepared to guarantee that?

 

[SPoD]

What if by "core" they mean "released into the SRD"? Every year, WOTC puts out a PHB, DMG, and MM that is released (minus product identity) into the SRD, along with 4-10 other supplements that are not. This allows WOTC to keep some of their material proprietary, while allowing third party developers access to other stuff, and making it clear up front which book is going to be which.

Thus, PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 include (say) psionics, gnomes, bloodlines, and such. The next year, PHB3/DMG3/MM3 adds incarnum, truenames, and rules for deities. PHB4/DMG4/MM4 adds some wacky stuff we can't even imagine now. And after each release, third party companies are free to take the ball and run with it. It would guarantee that the smaller companies always have something new and interesting to talk about, and that would build the D&D brand directing players back to the source.

On the more cynical hand, a lot of people won't buy a Psionics Handbook, but they might buy a Players Handbook II that just happens to have 50% of it devoted to psionics.

 

[Jer]

And you don't think they're not after money. I will guarentee that they Players handbook will be a Complete NEW Players Handbook every year. Not a PHB2.

I think they're totally after money. And that's why I will be willing to make a wager on your guarantee here. Doing something like that would screw up their revenue stream so badly it would make your head spin. The revenue stream for D&D has always been about selling Player's Handbooks to gamers - everything on top of that is gravy. So they print lots and lots of Player's Handbooks and warehouse them - printing lots at a time that they know they're going to sell through saves them money on the per copy cost. There's a reason that the "Revised 3.5" edition came out when they were getting ready to do another printing - the choice was do another printing of 3.0 or put the revision out.

If they came out with a completely new Player's Handbook every year that was "required" to play the game, a few things would happen. First, they'd have to print up smaller initial lots of PHBs from year to year, because the "expiration date" on those copies would be 12 months away. That means less guaranteed return on investment on Player's Handbooks. Second, edition fatigue would start killing off sales in droves - one year isn't even enough time to fully exploit a well designed card game, let alone something as complex as an RPG. They're pushing the time a bit with an eight year gap since the last edition, one year would be insane. Even if people were excited about a new set of rules, too many people would be mid-stream in their campaigns to want to suddenly switch to a new ruleset. One year is not enough gap between editions.

And this same reasoning tells us that they won't make these new PHBs complete books on their own (e.g. with the combat, and character creation, and other rules completely reprinted in them). They'll want you to own BOTH books - the core PHB and the new hotness PHB2. If every "sequel" contains the basic rules to play there's no incentive to get the core book, which is where the bulk of their sales come from. The economics just don't make sense.

As for D&D Insider - everything they're saying makes it sound like it's as "mandatory" to D&D 4e play as Dragon and Dungeon magazine have been to previous editions - not very. It sounds like there will be some neat tools, but that none of them will be required. And that makes sense too from an economic perspective if you think about it - you're already asking new players to plunk down almost $100 to get the 3 core books to play the darn game, and you're asking them to shell out money for miniatures and adventures and dungeon tiles and maps too - why put up a barrier to them spending money? Instead, make the stuff as modular as you can - if you can play the game with just the 3 core books that's perfect. Then slowly lure them in with shiny toys like adventures, miniatures, maps, electronic doo-dads, etc. until you have them spending the bulk of their entertainment budget on your shiny toys.

I mean, this is economics that any crack dealer knows instictively - I suspect that the whiz-kids at Hasbro have this part figured out.

 

[Khairn]

So, $120 a year to access DNDI. Which you will probably need to access to play the game properly... That is like buying 3-4 books a year. afterwhich I own. At the end of year, I have nothing to show now. Now books I can go look at on my shelf, that if for some reason I don't want to pay anymore, I can no longer play the game, because I no longer have access to all the new content they came out with after I bought my first PHB...

Vlos I agree with you, but others on this thread obviously don't. Some players have trust that WotC will do exactly what they say. You and I believe that no matter what WotC publicly says, they will do everything they can to make the DDI a necessity rather than totally optional with a few neat extra's.

A difference of opinion that neither of us will be able to prove for at least a year+.

 

[Jer]

Now books I can go look at on my shelf, that if for some reason I don't want to pay anymore, I can no longer play the game, because I no longer have access to all the new content they came out with after I bought my first PHB...

I have to say something about this line - because I was mulling it over and this just sounds weird to me.

I don't see how this would work. Are you saying that when you initially get the game it's intentionally "broken" so that you can only use it with updates from Wizards? Or are you saying that the game is just fine when you buy it, but if you choose not to subscribe to the electronic service the game deteriorates into something unusable?

I don't see how either of these are feasible. It's a book not an MMORPG. If the game functions when you buy it, it's still going to function later on when you go back to play again. You may not have the "newest hotness" in the game, but the game itself will still be sitting there, on your shelf, ready to play the next time you get interested. And it will, of necessity, be exactly the same game it was when you put it on the shelf.

I'm curious as to what you mean by that sentence, because for the life of me I can't see a situation where the game would become unplayable if you stopped subscribing to their electronic stuff.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Some players have trust that WotC will do exactly what they say. You and I believe that no matter what WotC publicly says, they will do everything they can to make the DDI a necessity rather than totally optional with a few neat extra's.

That's because I absolutely refuse to engage in any discussion predicated on the assumption that Andy, Bill, Rich, Mike, James, Chris (any of them), Dave, and Scott are lying to me.

Notice I called them by name. I know these people.

Notice I said "to me." These people know me, some to a greater or lesser extent than others. I've worked for or with many of them. I've gamed with some of them. And I'm hearing the same stuff you guys are.

And honestly, I'm starting to get pretty damn offended on their behalf at the constant, and absolutely unsupported, accusations.

These promises aren't coming from "some corporate mouthpiece" up at Hasbro. They're coming from people who were just freelancers, or just gamers, not too many years ago. And they're good people.

So either put up, with real evidence that they're lying to us, or tone down the rhetoric and accusations, all right?

 

[Imaro]

That's because I absolutely refuse to engage in any discussion predicated on the assumption that Andy, Bill, Rich, Mike, James, Chris (any of them), Dave, and Scott are lying to me.

Notice I called them by name. I know these people.

Notice I said "to me." These people know me, some to a greater or lesser extent than others. I've worked for or with many of them. I've gamed with some of them. And I'm hearing the same stuff you guys are.

And honestly, I'm starting to get pretty damn offended on their behalf at the constant, and absolutely unsupported, accusations.

These promises aren't coming from "some corporate mouthpiece" up at Hasbro. They're coming from people who were just freelancers, or just gamers, not too many years ago. And they're good people.

So either put up, with real evidence that they're lying to us, or tone down the rhetoric and accusations, all right?

Uhm...I can kind of understand where you're coming from, but...WotC isn't my or majority of the poster's friends. It's a company, and I haven't seen anyone called out by name, so I think if people feel a certain way about WotC then they are perfectly valid in exspressing they're opinion, just as you are in oposing said opinions. However to try and shift it so that it falls in the realm of some kind of personal attacks against the particular people you listed isn't fair.

At the end of the day these people are working for a company they do not own, so my comments or whatever are solely based upon their capacity in that area. If this wasn't the case, an NDA wouldn't mean squat and everything would be public knowledge...instead Hasbro runs things and makes the big decisions, period. For better or worse they really are it's mouthpiece.