D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Shuriken Clarification/Help?

[Zephyrus]

I have a character playing a throwing based fighter weilding primarly shuriken. However While going through the SRD the other day I spotted something that got me questioning how the shuriken worked and am having trouble now in my own mind that I'm handling it properly. my root questions are this. Note. this is 3.5.

1.) How many shuriken can be thrown per standard attack attack?

2.) Which Star, if any, do you add your STR modifier to?

In addition. it states that Shuriken while a thrown weapon are considered ammunition for the purposes of recovery etc.. Namely, if it hits, its used up and on a miss theirs a 50/50 chance its still okay. How should Magical Shuriken be handled then?

A.) How many magical shuriken can be made under the cost of a +1 Weapon enhancement?

B.) Can Magical shuriken be recovered as a thrown weapon or are considered used as if Ammunition?


The interpetation I've been reading thus far suggests that only 1 shuriken can be thrown at a time and adds its STR modifier to it. Up to Five (5) shuriken can be enhanced under a single +1 Weapon enhancement but as Ammunition they are used up regardless of if they hit or not.

I have a problem with this interpetation as it makes it so its not worth it to use shuriken at all, Your better off with daggers. Only one can be thrown per attack, deal more damage (1d4 vs 1d2) and are not rendered worthless after one use.

If multiple shuriken can be thrown as a batch (with seperate attack rolls each), then do you apply your STR modifier to All/One/None?

If multiple shuriken can be thrown as a batch (with seperate attack rolls each), then since Shuriken is treated as ammunition and in the 'Ranged weapon' table arrows, bolts and bullets all can be enhanced in batches of 50 per +1 modifier but if made this way shouldent shuriken also be able to be enhanced in batches of 50 instead of 5.

If multiple shuriken can be thrown as a batch (with seperate attack rolls each), then since Shuriken is listed in the 'uncommon weapons' table you can enhance up to five of them in one batch (since for 1 gp you get 5) but if made this way would not loose their enhancement unlike other ammunition (Arrows/Bolts/Bullets).

A note that the value of 50 Masterwork Arrows/Bolts/Bullets is 350gp. dispite that 10 sling bullets costs only 5sp, 10 Crossbow Bolts or 20 Bow Arrows only 1gp. This I Figure was done to simply the cost of a Mastework Arrow/Bolt/Bullet to 7gp each. Otherwise Masterwork ammunition if constructed in batches of 50 would cost 6gp+5cp per Arrow & Bullet and 6gp+1sp per Bolt. If done this way also, Shuriken wold be valued at 6gp+2sp each is constructed in a batch of 50.

So I poll/open to discussion your advice.

 

[Aenghus]

re: 3.5 Shuriken Clarification

1. One shuriken per standard attack (3.5 removed the triple throw per attack, but added Str bonus to the damage, which they didn't have in 3.0)

2. Add your Str bonus to damage on each shuriken thrown, as with any other thrown weapon.

A. 50 (fifty) +1 shuriken can be made for the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus, as with any other ammunition (arrows, bolts etc). I checked the current 3.5 SRD and this is not explicitly mentioned, but is implied by the statement shuriken are treated as ammunition.

B. They are used up as ammunition if they hit.

So yes, magic shuriken are expensive, but no more so than magic arrows. Note a Greater Magic Weapon spell will enchant them for 1 hour/level and an ally or magic who can cast this spell helps a lot to keep costs down.

I still don't see them as a good choice for a primary weapon for a fighter. I don't think you wanted this answer, but thems the official rules. You can house rule them if you wish.

They are monk weapons and can be used with flurry of blows, so work well for them.

Aenghus

 

[Zephyrus]

So asside from being Flurry-able. Theirs no point in them anymore? Heck. Daggers (simple weapons even!) are better.. 1d4 19-20/x2 10ft vs exotic 1d2 20/x2 10ft. I find something wrong with this. Being a monk special weapon doesnt really make them worth while.

Compared to daggers (one could argue that Shuriken are effectively daggers explicitly balenced for throwing). By removing the triple throw bit they've effectivly made Shuriken worthless by comparison.

However, since they are treated as ammunition. it is cheeper to get quantities of them as opposed to having to have multiple daggers enhanced. so maybe all hope is not lost.

In general this was the answer I was expecting.

The fighter in question is being built with thrown weapons in mind. All the fighter feats can realy make the character shine though admitantly the damge potential has been reduced significantly.

 

[Nail]

.....Theirs no point in them anymore? Heck. Daggers (simple weapons even!) are better..

Yup.

I'm not sure why that's a problem. They weight less, they cost less....they do less.

Moreover, they're worse than even the dart, a simple weapon. (Darts are better than daggers, BTW.) I guess I can understand the "style" issues.....but then again, you're not really going for a "ranged damage machine" anyway, are you? If so, there are better weapons than even the dart.

..... since they are treated as ammunition. it is cheeper to get quantities of them as opposed to having to have multiple daggers enhanced. so maybe all hope is not lost.

Not really. Few people would chose to enchant their ammunition using the magic weapon rules. It's just too expensive for the benefit.

Buy a magic bow and be done with it. Thrown weapons will never be good enough.

 

[Tellerve]

Besides what Nail just mentioned about the physical characteristics and cost of them, there is the dreaded real life point.

Obviously take it for what you want considering it is dnd, but shurken weren't meant to go off and be massive dealers of death. They were more for delivering poisons, distractions, etc.

Tellerve

 

[drunkmoogle]

Theirs no point in them anymore?

Well... there's no reason NOT to have some shurikens, even if you don't have proficiency...

Shurikens are treated as ammunition in regard to drawing them. If you're committed to a full attack in melee and you down an opponent with no one else in reach, you could use your next iteritive attacks on shurikens instead of wasting them. If you're not using a bow (or any weapon where loading is a free action), you could get a full ranged attack with, say, Heavy Crossbow/Shuriken/Shuriken.

Even if you can only hit on a 20, it's something to do.

 

[argo]

I have a problem with this interpetation as it makes it so its not worth it to use shuriken at all, Your better off with daggers. Only one can be thrown per attack, deal more damage (1d4 vs 1d2) and are not rendered worthless after one use.

The difference in damage isn't all that important. If you are using throwing weapons you are going to be looking for something else besides the base damage die for inflicting damage anyway.

You can draw shuriken as a free action but they require an EWP to use without penalty.

You can draw a dagger as a free action with the Quick-Draw feat but that feat is usefull for other weapons.

Shuriken can be enhanced as ammunituion, meaning that it is affordable (barely) to use them as magical throwing weapons. If you want magic throwing daggers you will want the Returning enhancement on them effectively putting the shuriken +1 over the dagger. Also you may be able to talk your DM into letting you buy partial batches of enhanced shuriken letting you buy a variety of special-circumstance ammunituion such as +1 holy shuriken and +1 Seeking Undead Bane shuriken and +1 Flaming Shocking shuriken, thats a lot of flexibility. Put as many special abilities as possible on them and get one of the casters in your party to cast GMW on your shuriken before going into a fight.

Yes, its true that a shuriken-fighter isn't going to rock the world. But I think that that has more to do with the general superiority of bows to every other sort of ranged weapon in DnD than it does the superiority of daggers over shuriken.

And then there is always the halfling Monk/Assasin with PBS, rapid shot, TWF and ranks in Craft[poisionmaking]

 

[jonexmachina]

"So asside from being Flurry-able. Theirs no point in them anymore? "

Just thought I'd mention that the most attacks possible in one round, in 3.5, takes advantage of shurikens. They're the only flurry-able ranged weapon, (edit - actually sais are too) and thus haste+greater flurry+greaterTWF+rapid shot+BAB 16 or higher is 11 attacks.

Throw in the Palm Shot ability of the Master Thrower, (CW) that lets you throw two with each attack (but no strength on damage) and that's 22 attacks. Pile on bonus damage dice to kill anything instantly.

However, if you arent inclined to indulge in monk-style twinkyness, daggers are probably better.

 

[strongbow]

Master Thrower, Master Thrower. That is why you use shuriken

Monk 2/Ftr4/Master Thrower 5

To hit
Bab +11
Dex +6
Point Blank Shot +1
Weapon Focus +1
I hope you ate your Heroes' Feast +1
Greater Magic Weapon +3
Haste +1
Flame Arrow Damage: Priceless
Rapid Shot -2
Flurry -2
TWF -2

You throw shuriken as touch attacks, and can throw two shuriken an attack.

+18 (BAB)/+18 (Haste)/+18 (Two Weapon Fighting)/+18 (Rapid Shot)/+18 (Flurry)/+13 (BAB 2nd)/+13 (Improved TWF)/+8 (BAB 3rd)

That's 14 shuriken per round, with each doing 1d2 + 5 (6 within 30 ft)Weapon Spec Shuriken gives you +2
All the shuriken are throwing at touch ac, so it is likely that you will hit with 12 of them. That's 12d2 + 60 (72 within 30 ft). A Flame Arrow cast nets you an additional 12d6 damage, which on average is 42 pts. You can trip using your dex mod instead of Strength with your shuriken.

Shuriken are cool, but you have to concentrate on them and have support from the party casters to do well with them.

 

[Gort]

The above build doesn't have a BAB of 11.