25th Level Spells - Hints from Past Podcasts

[takasi]

I was reading Rodney's Thompson's blog:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906384

Where he mentioned spell levels:

"When someone came up to me to talk about D&D 4th Edition, I was allowed to share this secret with them: Wizards will be able to cast 25th-level spells. "

I was listening to the D&D podcast (number 11 I think) a few months ago while I was camping. As I hiked up to the store, the designers were talking about their current campaigns and how things were going. One of them mentioned that his cleric was using some alternate spell system one of the designers came up with, where there were spell levels for every character level. I thought it was kind of odd that the lead designers for D&D would be trying out something so off the wall, but I chalked it up to the fancies of jaded gamers.

Are there any other tidbits from past podcasts? The last few podcasts have talked about the campaigns the designers are in, and I would assume they were using some version of 4th edition when they recorded them.

 

[kenmarable]

I haven't listened to the podcasts, but having spell levels equaling class levels would be a good change. I'll admit that the nostalgic side of me would mourn the loss of the 9 spell levels plus cantrips and orisons. But mechanically, it is much easier for people to understand and solves many problems with spell balance and such. Monte was part of the way there with AE's heightened and diminished spell effects, as well as simple/complex/exotic.

If this is what happens, I can see it being real tricky deciding if a new spell is 12th vs. 13th level, but as sad as it will be to see wish not be a 9th level spells, I think if they make this change, it would be best. But we'll just have to see.

 

[Marius Delphus]

In speaking with an inexperienced gamer of my acquaintance, the idea of character level versus spell level comes up quite a bit. This person wants badly to play a spellcaster. Really really badly. But we're finding that the thought of a 5th-level character having access to only 3rd-level spells (for example) is completely counter-intuitive. Personally, I'm okay with it, but I'm approaching 30 years of exposure (I won't say "experience" due to a very slow gaming schedule in recent years) to D&D and all its idiosyncrasies. In the end, I'm forced to agree that it seems a little silly on the face of it.

If the question is, "I just gained 2nd level. Why can't I have 2nd-level spells?" I'm forced to answer, "You just can't." And that answer reinforces the alienation and frustration this player feels with trying to take on a strongly desired role -- as though the answer was, "Just shut up and play." Which has never been said, certainly, but as I repeatedly fail to explain this weird artifact of the original game, I can see how easy it'd be to infer.

So I'm cautiously optimistic. If [whatever change resulted in the "25th-level spells" quote] makes spellcasters more fun and intuitive to design/build and play, then, nostalgia aside, I think I'll be pleased.

 

[Eagle Prince]

I recalled this exact thing myself when I read about the 25th lvl spells. And it made me wonder if 4e would end up with some half-baked spell system, just cause one of the game designered tried it out as a house rule and thought it was delux-kewl-like. If the new spell system is anything like that was describing (taking the current spells and just splitting them up into further lvl divisions, ie endure elements stays 1st, entangle becomes 2nd; bear's endurance 3rd, bull's strength 4th, etc)... I didn't like how it sounded then, and I like the sound of it a whole lot less now that it might have some bearing on the actual 4e spellcasting. Leave lame house-rules at home, not in 4e... bleh, the new spellcasting system sounds retarded so far.

 

[Eldragon]

I wonder if this means we get a new polymorph that is generic that spans many levels. for example: Polymorph into a creature whose HD = the Level of the spell.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

While I really like this idea, where I think it will create some major complaints is in high-level play.
"What do you mean my 19th level Wizard can't cast Time Stop?"
"Sorry, that's a 26th level spell now."
"4e sucks!"

 

[netnomad]

One thing I’m wondering about is that if they are going to reduce the amount of spells but give them levels like PCs. For example, an arcane caster would take the Control Fire Spell but it scales with level: At 1st level the spell would be liked Control Normal Fires, the 3rd flame sphere, 5th fireball, 7th Wall of Flame, 9th Rain of Fire, Etc… In other words a single spell can have multiple uses.

Of course this is just speculation.

-NetNomad

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I wonder if this means we get a new polymorph that is generic that spans many levels. for example: Polymorph into a creature whose HD = the Level of the spell.

It would certainly simplify things somewhat.

 

[Seule]

One thing I’m wondering about is that if they are going to reduce the amount of spells but give them levels like PCs. For example, an arcane caster would take the Control Fire Spell but it scales with level: At 1st level the spell would be liked Control Normal Fires, the 3rd flame sphere, 5th fireball, 7th Wall of Flame, 9th Rain of Fire, Etc… In other words a single spell can have multiple uses.

Of course this is just speculation.

-NetNomad

So, you'd be playing Rolemaster!


--Penn

 

[kenmarable]

One thing I’m wondering about is that if they are going to reduce the amount of spells but give them levels like PCs. For example, an arcane caster would take the Control Fire Spell but it scales with level: At 1st level the spell would be liked Control Normal Fires, the 3rd flame sphere, 5th fireball, 7th Wall of Flame, 9th Rain of Fire, Etc… In other words a single spell can have multiple uses.

Of course this is just speculation.

-NetNomad

Sounds a lot like 3.5 psionics with the augmentation rules. Always thought having a big stack of cure spells was pretty lame. Looking at all of the "lesser" and "greater" spells in the books, condensing those would certainly simplify things a lot and make low level spells not as lame at higher PC levels.