20 vs 18

[Herschel]

Yes, I mean 15. Darn typos.

Actually, I looked at the paladin on the CB, and she hasn't bumped up str and cha every time she gets a stat bump. However, neither the weapon nor the implement (she doesn't have a lot of implement powers anyways) are outdated. Those are things I can handle. It's weird, I've never been shocked that someone wasn't enough of a munchkin.

What I did in subsquent encounters was lower the monster's defenses as a temporary stop gap for everyone. I may continue this rather than try to play someone's PC for them. I mean, their just trying to play well-rounded characters. That seems like something I should encourage.

Just because the system is good at abalance doesn't mean a character can't suck, just that it's hard to make one that does. Your Paladin player seems to have gone out of her way to make a character that kind of sucks. What is she using for a weapon?

There's an opportunity cost for things, with lots of flexibility. Starting with a 20 means you can use whatever weapon/implement you like and spend feats or pick class features on whatever you want (or can qualify for). But, you nerf your secondary/tertiary depth/benefits.

A 19 post-racial is a little more flexible and makes 4th level feel like Christmas but still a little limiting.

An 18 post-racial in your primary means you can still go pretty much any route you want, but you may want to make a choice of an expertise feat, class feature or proficiancy bonus at some point just to keep your accuracy up.

A 17-post racial might be slightly behind the curve half the time and means you should invest in something to increase your accuracy.

A 16 post-racial can work for many builds too, but your choices get a lot more limited and you need to invest in accuracy. Look at a Dwarf Fighter. 16/16/16 post-racial in STR/CON/WIS can work with +2 proficiancy "Dwarven Weapons" because of the +1 Fighter Weapon Talent option class features. And you'll likely want (borderline need) to take Expertise at some point.

Anything lower than a 16 post-racial in your attack stat has entered the suck zone unless you invest HEAVILY in other resources for accuracy. That means +3, expertise EARLY, class feature or don't attack AC (and maybe go after Will as much as possible).

All this assumes you use your stat pumps in your primary attack stats.

Well-rounded is a nice concept, but characters can't be good at everything, just like real people. Every character who is good at their main thing is going to be weak somewhere. That's cool because it's a team game and you have partners to fill in those gaps.

 

[Norcross]

It's sad that power-creep has affected D&D so much that having an 18 at first level is now only considered "acceptable".

 

[Droogie128]

DEX primary classes can all get away with a 20 without much thought. Everyone else kind of has to weigh the pros and cons. It's mainly because of what DEX provides is almost always greater than the rider effects of their secondary abilities.

 

[Herschel]

Holy NecroTroll, and actually 16 is "still" the acceptable starting attack stat, just like always. Very few people ever wanted to play a 9 STR Fighter (can't even carry my armor and gear) or 9 INT Magic User (I might be lucky to learn enough spells for my minimal slots and I'll never get to use the big ones) in first edition and that's when Magic Users didn't even have to roll to hit!

 

[Droogie128]

Holy NecroTroll, and actually 16 is "still" the acceptable starting attack stat, just like always. Very few people ever wanted to play a 9 STR Fighter (can't even carry my armor and gear) or 9 INT Magic User (I might be lucky to learn enough spells for my minimal slots and I'll never get to use the big ones) in first edition and that's when Magic Users didn't even have to roll to hit!

Wow. Didn't even notice how bad of a necro this was, lol.

 

[Ramaster]

Bow/Xbow rangers can get away with a 20 dex (it is, probably, the best build possible). If you go elf, you can take 20 Dex (18+2), 16 Wis (14+2) and the rest to constitution. You'll end up with a DEVASTATING build.

You take Exotic wpn prf superior crossbow on first level and weapon expertice as the next feat. That will probably get you the best to-hit chance in the game (except for 20 str fighters and 20 dex rogues and some avengers), against ac, al least.

You will have a kickass AC and defenses.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Bow/Xbow rangers can get away with a 20 dex (it is, probably, the best build possible). If you go elf, you can take 20 Dex (18+2), 16 Wis (14+2) and the rest to constitution. You'll end up with a DEVASTATING build.

You take Exotic wpn prf superior crossbow on first level and weapon expertice as the next feat. That will probably get you the best to-hit chance in the game (except for 20 str fighters and 20 dex rogues and some avengers), against ac, al least.

You will have a kickass AC and defenses.

And no depth at all. Yes, it is easy to optimize, but optimizing is jsut a thought exercise. I think most of this breaks down when playing a real game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I guess one of the few corner cases where you are very good still...
If you chose melee ranger build you even have good enough hp...

But even then I would at least look if a 15 in wis will be sufficient for first level... I actually like the 18/13/13 array even if it is nonstandard.

As noticed: yes, dex is sooo useful. If your secondary is wisdom, you more or less have all important bonuses to skills you ever need as a scout.

Dex wis is such a great combination that any other stat is just optional. (Which does not mean, that chosing a class that gives totally different bonuses to attributes is totally out of question. But most races which remotely fit can get a bonus to a secondary at least.

 

[Herschel]

Bow/Xbow rangers can get away with a 20 dex (it is, probably, the best build possible). If you go elf, you can take 20 Dex (18+2), 16 Wis (14+2) and the rest to constitution. You'll end up with a DEVASTATING build.

You take Exotic wpn prf superior crossbow on first level and weapon expertice as the next feat. That will probably get you the best to-hit chance in the game (except for 20 str fighters and 20 dex rogues and some avengers), against ac, al least.

You will have a kickass AC and defenses.

Actually, that's not really "the way to go". Not only do you have a two-dimensional character, you have no FORT and nothing else to build with. Also, Great Bow is probably a better choice as the Superior Crossbow costs you two feats to properly use unless you really don't want to build in other features. This is one of the builds where a 20 DEX isn't bad, nor amI trying to say it is, but it's not necessarily the "Best" way to build it as Rangers are built around Twin Strike and Dex mod isn't added to damage. Also, you're not a melee character so AC shouldn't come in to play as often.

I generally like to have a 14 in every NAD (but have to settle for a 13 some times) and don't like double NAD stat classes. It's one of my frustrations with my Half-Elf Prescient Bard with "Dwarven Reflexes" even though I love the concept.

 

[Ramaster]

Actually, that's not really "the way to go". Not only do you have a two-dimensional character, you have no FORT and nothing else to build with. Also, Great Bow is probably a better choice as the Superior Crossbow costs you two feats to properly use unless you really don't want to build in other features. This is one of the builds where a 20 DEX isn't bad, nor amI trying to say it is, but it's not necessarily the "Best" way to build it as Rangers are built around Twin Strike and Dex mod isn't added to damage. Also, you're not a melee character so AC shouldn't come in to play as often.

I don't have my 4e books with me right now, but I think that you can get a 18/14/14 pre-racial with the standard pointbuy. That means 20 dex, 16 wis and 14 fort, which in my experience is good enough, defense wise.

Also, why does everyone keep saying that this character will be "dull" and "two dimensional" ? the character is just as interesting as the time/effort you punt into it. It all depends on weather or not you can come up with a good enough background.

As for the superior crossbow vs greatbow thing. In my opinion, 4e is about acuracy. I'm talking about theoretical optimization, here. The crossbow is more acurate, and that's it. The minor action to reload will ussually be your move action, since you are normally not required to move. Some turns you'll even be able to reload/shoot/reload (if you don't need to move nor use quarry). The increased acuracy will pay out in the end, damage wise (as you will be able to conect quarry shots more often). Plus, all those fancy dailys that imitate twinshot and let you add dex to damage will be encounter winners.