D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Micah Sweet · Dec 18, 2023

James Gasik said:
The same way a Rogue completely dodges a fireball, I imagine.

Another thing I've never agreed with.

soviet · Dec 18, 2023

Micah Sweet said:
The assumption that we're in an action movie is another problem I have with 4e.

Why would you play something you fundamentally don't want?

Voadam · Dec 18, 2023

James Gasik said:
You know, going back to my Rogue comment, no version of Evasion has ever explained how it works, beyond (it just does) leaving it up to the table to figure it out. Not even what I believe to be it's original version, all the way back in Oriental Adventures.
View attachment 340568
So how come this one has gotten a pass for 39 years but Come and Get It is still a subject of ire?

Earlier than that, it is in the 1e PH.

And before that in Oe Blackmoor so back to 1975:

Lanefan · Dec 18, 2023

Gammadoodler said:
It's that way with a lot of things in D&D if you apply a 'real world' lens to it. Worse, it's not like people will apply the same lens to everything, or that two people will look through that lens and reach the same conclusions. Can centaurs climb, how do giants get around square/cube laws, how does a regular human survive a fall of x height? Do elves, dwarves, and halflings fall the same way as humans? Does a fireball work underwater?

So what are designers to do? Try and accommodate the vast, diverse, inconsistent and sometimes conflicting interpretations of fantasy biomechanical physical and metaphysical interactions ?

More that they should pick one interpretation, stick with it, and show their work while explaining to us how that interpretation functions. Put another way, for each rule there needs to be (up to) two things added*: 1) why this rule exists and 2) how it's intended to look in the fiction based on that underlying interpretation of the physics and metaphysics they're trying to represent.

* - quite a lot of this could be done in a blanket chapter on how the game's physics and metaphysics are intended to work in general.

soviet · Dec 18, 2023

Lanefan said:
More that they should pick one interpretation, stick with it, and show their work while explaining to us how that interpretation functions. Put another way, for each rule there needs to be (up to) two things added*: 1) why this rule exists and 2) how it's intended to look in the fiction based on that underlying interpretation of the physics and metaphysics they're trying to represent.

* - quite a lot of this could be done in a blanket chapter on how the game's physics and metaphysics are intended to work in general.

Hit points

Micah Sweet · Dec 18, 2023

James Gasik said:
You know, going back to my Rogue comment, no version of Evasion has ever explained how it works, beyond (it just does) leaving it up to the table to figure it out. Not even what I believe to be it's original version, all the way back in Oriental Adventures.
View attachment 340568
So how come this one has gotten a pass for 39 years but Come and Get It is still a subject of ire?

Evasion has never gotten a pass from me. I don't agree with every rule even in games I like.

Lanefan · Dec 18, 2023

pemerton said:
How hard do you think it is for a skilled invisible, silenced fighter to use their weapon to bundle their enemies into a group where they can then attack them?

Very, given that a) said bundling action could easily count as an aggressive action and blow their invisibility and b) being suddenly plunged into silence would probably serve as a warning, to anything that can hear, of something being amiss.

Micah Sweet · Dec 18, 2023

soviet said:
Why would you play something you fundamentally don't want?

I don't, not anymore. Played and ran 4e for over a year after it came out before I and my group gave up on it except as a ruleset for fun arena matches.

soviet · Dec 18, 2023

Lanefan said:
Very, given that a) said bundling action could easily count as an aggressive action and blow their invisibility and b) being suddenly plunged into silence would probably serve as a warning, to anything that can hear, of something being amiss.

'Hey it suddenly got real quiet over there. Grishnakh and Slicer, let's go and check it out.'

tomBitonti · Dec 18, 2023

James Gasik said:
You know, going back to my Rogue comment, no version of Evasion has ever explained how it works, beyond (it just does) leaving it up to the table to figure it out. Not even what I believe to be it's original version, all the way back in Oriental Adventures.
View attachment 340568
So how come this one has gotten a pass for 39 years but Come and Get It is still a subject of ire?

I once proposed the idea of a committed action: A reaction that cost you your first action in your next turn. Then, evasion could be a committed move outside of the spell area of effect.

My group was unenthused, at the least.

Evasion is a well, loved, signature ability for dexterity builds. You have a better chance of bearding Smaug in his lair than getting players to give up evasion.
TomB

D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

soviet

Hero

Voadam

Legend

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

soviet

Hero

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

soviet

Hero

tomBitonti

Adventurer

Similar Threads

Voidrunner's Codex