Dimensions vs Spheres

[Khisanth the Ancient]

So I was thinking about the BECMi Immortals cosmology and how Immortals are divided into five Spheres: Matter, Time, Thought, Energy, Entropy.

These match exactly with four of the six IH lower dimensions (Entropy, Time, Matter, Thought) and the fifth is close (Energy ~ Spirit).

So is the sixth (Fate/Space) separate because it represents the Prime Material, and the BECMI Immortals in both rules sets are limited by Immortal law from interfering directly with Prime mortals...so there are no Immortals "of" the Prime?

 

[Obly99]

So I was thinking about the BECMi Immortals cosmology and how Immortals are divided into five Spheres: Matter, Time, Thought, Energy, Entropy.

These match exactly with four of the six IH lower dimensions (Entropy, Time, Matter, Thought) and the fifth is close (Energy ~ Spirit).

So is the sixth (Fate/Space) separate because it represents the Prime Material, and the BECMI Immortals in both rules sets are limited by Immortal law from interfering directly with Prime mortals...so there are no Immortals "of" the Prime?

In the IH we can have immortals of the Material Plane.

• The divine templates say:
  Size and Type: Type changes to Outsider. If the deities godly realm (see below) exists anywhere other than the material plane, then it also gains the Extraplanar Sub-type.​

This implies that there can be deities who are on the material plane although it is quite rare given that even just for protection the outer planes or even a private demiplane are much better.

• The First One template list Aditi as the First One of the Prime Material Plane​

So a "god" of the Material Plane can exist

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Yes, that's true.

What I was trying to get at is:
In IH, you can have an Immortal of the Material Plane. In BECMI, you can't. And the only IH Dimension that doesn't match a BECMI Sphere is the Material Plane one.

So the Immortals of the Material Plane are "missing" from the BECMI cosmology (relative to the IH one).

 

[Obly99]

Yes, that's true.

What I was trying to get at is:
In IH, you can have an Immortal of the Material Plane. In BECMI, you can't. And the only IH Dimension that doesn't match a BECMI Sphere is the Material Plane one.

So the Immortals of the Material Plane are "missing" from the BECMI cosmology (relative to the IH one).

For BECMI you mean the edition of d&d released in 1983?

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

1983 sounds right. The Mentzer Classic D&D sets (Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters/Immortals) and follow ups (Gazetteers, Rules Cyclopedia, Wrath of the Immortals, etc).

 

[Obly99]

Ok, so I'll avoid intervening in this discussion since I've never approached it and I don't know anything about it.
The only thing I can say with the information you gave in the First post is that if in that edition ALL the gods were in places external to the material plane it was probably a choice of the writers who decided for one reason or another not to having them too present in the place

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

if in that edition ALL the gods were in places external to the material plane it was probably a choice of the writers who decided for one reason or another not to having them too present in the place

Oh, it was definitely intentional - not intervening directly in the Prime spelled out early in both the Immortals Set and Wrath of the Immortals (though what counts as 'direct' is a bit different in the two*) as the primary rule of Immortal society.

The reason why is (in-world perspective) because the only way Immortals can come into being is for exceptional mortals to attain Immortality, and the by far best source of suitable candidates is the Prime -- if Immortals intervened heavily, they'd at best make mortals dependent on them and thus less likely to develop the needed exceptional qualities, and at worst, Immortals would damage the Prime Plane itself. (Out-of-game perspective, it's presumably to keep Immortals from overshadowing mortal PCs on the mortal PCs' home terrain.)

*Immortals are more like gods in the Wrath of the Immortals set, and can get away with more (but they're also more vulnerable). Gold Box Immortals weren't directly worshiped, and were extremely secret on the Prime - the implication is that most mortals don't even know that Immortals exist, it's something you learn at fairly high levels once you become a potential candidate. When the Gazetteer series began, Immortals became the focus of religions, and the Wrath set went with that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Apologies for the slow reply amigo, was on holiday for a week.

So I was thinking about the BECMi Immortals cosmology and how Immortals are divided into five Spheres: Matter, Time, Thought, Energy, Entropy.

These match exactly with four of the six IH lower dimensions (Entropy, Time, Matter, Thought) and the fifth is close (Energy ~ Spirit).

So is the sixth (Fate/Space) separate because it represents the Prime Material, and the BECMI Immortals in both rules sets are limited by Immortal law from interfering directly with Prime mortals...so there are no Immortals "of" the Prime?

Obviously I was aware of the BECMI classifications and to an extent I wanted to parallel that for consistency. Spirit is basically Energy by another name, one more suited to spiritual planes.

As to the addition of Fate that was inspired by Gary Gygax who had Fate as one of the Overgods in his Gord the Rogue saga.

At the time it seemed more apropos to have Fate oversee the Prime Material Plane because of Horoscopes (ie. 'the stars'), mortals having self-determination (or at least thinking they do).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Oh, it was definitely intentional - not intervening directly in the Prime spelled out early in both the Immortals Set and Wrath of the Immortals (though what counts as 'direct' is a bit different in the two*) as the primary rule of Immortal society.

The reason why is (in-world perspective) because the only way Immortals can come into being is for exceptional mortals to attain Immortality, and the by far best source of suitable candidates is the Prime -- if Immortals intervened heavily, they'd at best make mortals dependent on them and thus less likely to develop the needed exceptional qualities, and at worst, Immortals would damage the Prime Plane itself. (Out-of-game perspective, it's presumably to keep Immortals from overshadowing mortal PCs on the mortal PCs' home terrain.)

Immortals can have children. So Immortals can be born Immortal. They do not need to be mortals who then gain immortality.

*Immortals are more like gods in the Wrath of the Immortals set, and can get away with more (but they're also more vulnerable). Gold Box Immortals weren't directly worshiped, and were extremely secret on the Prime - the implication is that most mortals don't even know that Immortals exist, it's something you learn at fairly high levels once you become a potential candidate. When the Gazetteer series began, Immortals became the focus of religions, and the Wrath set went with that.

It makes sense that some immortals might seek out worship and become "gods", while others do not and are seen as "anti-gods".

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

In IH rules, and in mythology, sure. But the Immortals Set rules which make a point that they can't (it says Immortals can have children, but those children are born mortal with no real special advantages).

This may have been done to distance Immortals from 'gods' by emphasizing they're all former mortals, or maybe to explain why Immortals don't fix things for mortal PCs (they need threats facing mortals, so heroes can arise), or maybe both?