D&D 2E Edition Experience - Did/Do you Play AD&D 2E? How Was/Is It?

[Voadam]

Elven Chain Mail

(From DMG...revised 241)
This is magical armor so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing its presence. Its lightness and flexibility allow even BARDS and THIEVES to use it with few restrictions. Elven fighter/mages use it without restriction, however, it is rarely sized to fit anyone other than an elf or a half-elf.

Bolded words were not bolded in text, I put the bolding in there to point it out. Also, note, you had a 20% chance of getting man-sized elven chain if you found it, but Half-Elves could also be Bards.

Yes they can use it. It does not say they can cast in it.

It says they can use it in the PH too. "He can wear any armor up to, and including, chain mail, but he cannot use a shield."

Same for thieves "A thief can wear leather, studded leather, padded leather, or elven chain armor. When wearing any allowed armor other than leather, the thief’s abilities are penalized (see Table 29)."

I would place the bolding in a different part of the sentence.

"Its lightness and flexibility allow even BARDS and THIEVES to use it with few restrictions."

One of those restrictions is penalties to thief skills, another seems to be casting in armor.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes they can use it. It does not say they can cast in it.

It says they can use it in the PH too. "He can wear any armor up to, and including, chain mail, but he cannot use a shield."

Same for thieves "A thief can wear leather, studded leather, padded leather, or elven chain armor. When wearing any allowed armor other than leather, the thief’s abilities are penalized (see Table 29)."

I would place the bolding in a different part of the sentence.

"Its lightness and flexibility allow even BARDS and THIEVES to use it with few restrictions."

One of those restrictions is penalties to thief skills, another seems to be casting in armor.

Ahhhhh, AD&D rules debates, good luck!

 

[GungHo]

I played it and liked it. However, I would point out that there were not as many sophisticated competitors as there are now.

 

[Voadam]

Ahhhhh, AD&D rules debates, good luck!

My brother and I can remember getting heated debates about the wording of backstab in 1e and 2e.

 

[Zardnaar]

Bard Spell spellcasting...some rule they can in armor...as long as it is...

Elven Chain...

Very plausible to have at higher levels.

Bards were pretty good in AD&D 2e. Got depowered by a LOT in 3e.

PS: One of the BEST spells a Bard could cast on an unprepared Magic-User in the first round was Color Spray. Have to win initiative and then you have a possibility of having ended that battle right then and there.

Only elves could cast in EC and couldn't be bards.....

Then they made elven plate mail.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Only elves could cast in EC and couldn't be bards.....

Then they made elven plate mail.

LOL, I don't recall at this late stage all the various spots in 2e where this stuff was touched on. I'm guessing if you pick the right quotes from the right spots in specific places in the rules you might be able to support "Only elves could cast in EC", I don't know. This is the point. I could easily find paragraphs which clearly contradict that. Other sections of the rules are written as if one or the other position is simply assumed. There is no possibility of definitive answers to all but the most basic and trivial of AD&D rules questions.

 

[Alzrius]

There is no possibility of definitive answers to all but the most basic and trivial of AD&D rules questions.

I've seen at least three different takes on the question of "what rank does a deity need to be in order to grant quest spells?"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've seen at least three different takes on the question of "what rank does a deity need to be in order to grant quest spells?"

The other part is just 'process'. How does combat ACTUALLY WORK? We know how to roll for initiative and make attacks and such. We know rules for calculating who's blow struck first, and etc. However, we don't know what the heck the rule is for who can attack whom in a melee and whether you can even decide that or if it has to be determined at random. How does that interact with rules like facing when it is defined that you don't have a definite specific location within the melee? It is clear as mud.

 

[Voadam]

LOL, I don't recall at this late stage all the various spots in 2e where this stuff was touched on. I'm guessing if you pick the right quotes from the right spots in specific places in the rules you might be able to support "Only elves could cast in EC", I don't know.

Page 64 of the PH Revised under benefits of multiclassing where it talks about multiclassing wizards and armor:

"Wizard: A multi-classed wizard can freely combine the powers of the wizard with any other class allowed, although the wearing of armor is restricted. Elves wearing elven chain can cast spells in armor, as magic is part of the nature of elves. However, elven chain is extremely rare and can never be purchased. It must be given, found, or won."

The other relevant places would be under the wizard (page 42) and bard (page 58) classes for the explicit general prohibitions on casting in armor, and on the entry for elven chain on page 241 in the revised DMG

"Elven Chain Mail: This is magical armor so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing its presence. Its lightness and flexibility allow even bards and thieves to use it with few restrictions (see Chapter 3 in the PHB). Elven fighter/mages use it without restriction. However, it is rarely sized to fit anyone other than an elf or a half-elf."

This is the point. I could easily find paragraphs which clearly contradict that.

I have not found them. The closest was that DMG quote which did not seem a clear contradiction to me. I am open to seeing such, but a search on the PDFs of the revised 2e PH and DMG for "elven chain" does not show any. I have not however checked my hardcopy of the unrevised 2e PH and I never owned the unrevised 2e DMG.

Other sections of the rules are written as if one or the other position is simply assumed. There is no possibility of definitive answers to all but the most basic and trivial of AD&D rules questions.

Rules things can be contradictory or ambiguous or inconsistent, particularly in different sources, but this seems clearly stated in places that make sense to look in the core rulebooks.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Page 64 of the PH Revised under benefits of multiclassing where it talks about multiclassing wizards and armor:

"Wizard: A multi-classed wizard can freely combine the powers of the wizard with any other class allowed, although the wearing of armor is restricted. Elves wearing elven chain can cast spells in armor, as magic is part of the nature of elves. However, elven chain is extremely rare and can never be purchased. It must be given, found, or won."

The other relevant places would be under the wizard (page 42) and bard (page 58) classes for the explicit general prohibitions on casting in armor, and on the entry for elven chain on page 241 in the revised DMG

"Elven Chain Mail: This is magical armor so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing its presence. Its lightness and flexibility allow even bards and thieves to use it with few restrictions (see Chapter 3 in the PHB). Elven fighter/mages use it without restriction. However, it is rarely sized to fit anyone other than an elf or a half-elf."


I have not found them. The closest was that DMG quote which did not seem a clear contradiction to me. I am open to seeing such, but a search on the PDFs of the revised 2e PH and DMG for "elven chain" does not show any. I have not however checked my hardcopy of the unrevised 2e PH and I never owned the unrevised 2e DMG.


Rules things can be contradictory or ambiguous or inconsistent, particularly in different sources, but this seems clearly stated in places that make sense to look in the core rulebooks.

Yeah, but then there's 10% of Elven Chainmail which is sized for humans. And there's the question of half-elves as well. So it is quite a bit less clear than it first appears. This is not even getting into the questions raised by various other supplements. Some of them are written under the assumption that this works for anyone, or at least some specific 'rules' are. There are NPCs/pregens in various places as well. It is really clear as mud. I don't argue that when Zeb or Steve or whomever wrote those paragraphs in the PHB that they were not definite in their minds about it, just that TSR as a whole didn't really consistently follow through on rules. They treated them more as "well, this is how we thought it maybe should be" vs "though shalt do X or be blasted by lightning."

Also, probably 90% of the people running 2e at the time the PHB/DMG/MC came out were simply skimming the rules and making a few minor adjustments to their 1e stuff. I mean, frankly, we didn't even read carefully enough or care enough to get into that kind of minutia, and at that level 1e and 2e are not particularly consistent. In fact there really isn't much point to Elven Chain in 1e since elves can cast spells in any sort of armor. At best it is just a way for your elf thief/m-u to have a better AC, assuming you can find a set.

Beyond that I'm pretty sure that elves got to be Bards later in some splat book anyway, so that would make the whole thing a bit more relevant to that class. Frankly I'm pretty sure we quickly decided that bards could cast in leather, as it was not a huge problem and the class is a bit on the weaker side as it is.