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"The term 'GNS' is moronic and annoying" – well this should be an interesting interview

Pedantic

Legend
Yeah, that's about what I expected. "Writer's room" is once again a way of restating the same objection, and it's getting read differently than intended because the actual objection is flatly denied as a viable play priority, as usual.

That's only one small part of "writers' room". It's more about crafting the story as an object or artifact to be presented (or enjoyed later) in a particular way, as opposed to letting a story emerge. Yes, in a writers' room everybody is more or less free to suggest actions for any character, PC or NPC, but more significantly, they can change facts "retroactively" or lay out a sequence of "future" events, as long as they get buy-in from everybody else (which may be through regular dialogue or through some formalized system). I use scare quotes there because it's also entirely possible in a writers' room situation to craft a story out of temporal sequence, just as some crafted stories present their events out of temporal sequence.
This is the more specific definition that I think isn't generally being used, but is being substituted when responding to claims of it.

How is it a compromise when it's doing what he wants?
I'm not proposing that kenada is compromising with another party, but that the design compromises between several designs to achieve the desired goal.


Ah, this must be getting back to the narrow idea of "writers' room" above.
Pretty sure this is the broad reading of the term. We're doing any vs. all differentiation, where it either compromises any decision making outside of character action declaration or must entail all decision making about the narrative.

I don't find it harmful to my immersion to propose complications and such, although I can see how it could be for others (also depending on one's personal idea of "immersion"). And, no system could be complete enough to cover every possible outcome (other than simple succeed/fail I suppose?). The second you step outside that binary, you have GM fiat when unbounded by system or when bounded by system (in which case it is no longer actually fiat, but constrained in some agreed-upon way).

I'm not sure what you mean by "completeness".
No deep reading here, I think it's a viable and reasonable goal for a system to propose a specific resolution for nearly all declared courses of action, given the constraints of genre. I don't think it's generally necessary to either default to a generic resolution system, or to require the GM to do on the fly design work. It's fine if it's not perfect. GM-as-adjudicator is the usual fallback, it just should be a fallback, and hopefully can be patterned on similar rules that do exist in the rare cases it's necessary.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Characters are incapable of negotiating with reality; the consequences of their actions are intrinsic to the actions themselves.
The claim that the consequences of people's actions are intrinsic to those actions is controversial - for instance, was the First World War and all that it brought with it, such as the collapse of Tsarist Russia, intrinsic to the action of shooting the Archduke in Sarajevo? Presumably Hegel answers yes, but that's a controversial position.

The claim that the consequences of a characters actions are intrinsic to those actions also seems controversial. The character is imaginary, as are the consequences. And within the fiction presumably the metaphysics can be whatever we imagine: we can imagine a providential or even Hegelian world in which every outcomes is intrinsic to the action that led to it; or we can imagine a nihilistic or arbitrary world in which actions generate consequences that are the product of the interplay of external and uncontrollable forces.

One thing characters can do is wonder what is going to happen to them when they do this thing in this situation. Another thing they can do is feel the threat of the situation they are in, and its possibility to blow up in their face at any moment. Asking for a Devil's Bargain seems to me like it increases the player's sense of these things, and hence their cognitive and emotional proximity to their character.

Hence why I deny the claim that Devil's Bargain-type mechanics are, in general and necessarily, inimical to immersion.
 

thefutilist

Adventurer
I view the "establishment of situations" as an incorrect reading of the GM's role. They establish and populate a setting as a worldbuilder and separately animate the forces/people/things inside that setting. Situation is an emergent property of the interactions between those roles, the actions of the PCs and the results output by the system (which should encode the impact of actions separately from setting and actors; the GM role that should be most deprecated is GM-as-adjudicator).
I think of situation as the cast of characters and the relationships between them. So there’s only one capital S Situation.

I’m about to play Sorcerer and the way I’m creating the Situation is by detailing the cast and then creating the relationships. In this instance the PC is coming into town and so they have no relationship with him other than by virtue of what he is ‘a demon hunter,’

I think there’s going to be about ten main cast NPC’s and then I’m done. No more main cast members will be introduced.

So in this instance I’ve created the Situation almost in it’s entirety. Now, I can kick back and just be the animating force. Or put another way, I can disinvest myself of having to create more situation.

I think we might be using situation in different ways though?
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I view the "establishment of situations" as an incorrect reading of the GM's role. They establish and populate a setting as a worldbuilder and separately animate the forces/people/things inside that setting. Situation is an emergent property of the interactions between those roles, the actions of the PCs and the results output by the system (which should encode the impact of actions separately from setting and actors; the GM role that should be most deprecated is GM-as-adjudicator).
By “establish situation”, I refer to situational authority. When the players say they are going into the dungeon, it’s the GM’s job to describe what they see. When they go into a bar looking for a contact, it’s the GM’s job to describe who is there and how the contact behaves as they approach. This is sometimes referred to as “scene framing”. My point is players are responsible for their characters and what they do. They don’t frame scenes or contribute content beyond the changes effected by their characters’ actions. The GM is in charge of adjudication but also frame scenes so that play can happen. A fully systemic approach would remove that authority from the GM, but I expect that would make for play that is considerably less flexible. It seems very similar to what adventure board games like Middara do.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Middara. I picked it up at Origins a few years ago and backed Act 2 and 3 when they opened it up. We play it in off weeks when we don’t have a full group. It’s a lot of fun, but your agency as a player is pretty limited. You can choose how you gear and build your character, whether to do side encounters, and your tactics during an encounter. That’s pretty much it. There’s no GM, but there’s no need for one because even the monsters are automated with AI cards.

Once you move directly to situations, you necessarily conflate the GM's roles, and run into questions about agency, though you're clearly working on another angle to resolve that. I think you run into a trade-off of immersion, in exchange for hopefully getting something stronger than a GM's professional responsibility to separate actions taken while embodying different roles.
There is a conflict of interests that people have recognized since the start of the hobby (if not before). Again, another quote from The Elusive Shift.

As many would soon point out, the simulation implied by realism transitions poorly to the realm of fantasy, but the designers of D&D nonetheless strove for a system that represented magic and monsters in a balanced way, preserving the logic of the fantasy literature that these systems emulated. But it might be said that its rules opted for playability over realism: no design could hope to encompass all of the situations that might arise in a fantasy game like D&D, especially a game that hoped to simulate people and not just wars. So the rulebook explicitly authorized the referee to alter the design, and with that D&D created an opportunity for referee bias that could not be governed by mere dice.
This necessarily brought the neutrality of the referee into doubt. In 1976, Kevin Slimak reaffirmed Phillies’s tenet that, “really, D&D is a game between the dungeonmasters and the players; they are the two sides. The dungeon designer sets the problems for his adventurers and they try to solve them.” But Slimak further recognized that this creates a peculiar conflict of interest for the referee: “Remember this when you run your game. You are playing with/against the adventurers, true, but you have ALL the advantages. If you use all these advantages, you’ll get those players, for SURE, but in the long run, you lose. Doing this will kill off your game for sure” (AW 3 (7)). This power imbalance would persuade many that D&D could not be played as a wargame and that it was instead the foundational entry in a new game category.​
Excerpt From​
The Elusive Shift
Jon Peterson​
This material may be protected by copyright.​

A common solution to this problem is for the GM to do sufficient prep and stick to that prep. The prep may be biased, and there is a risk you may bias play towards your prep, but since it is prepared ahead of time, it can conceivably be done in a fair way. So I don’t have an issue with prep. I use it to help me have things to say, and the things in my prep are fixed. What I prep are facts. This dungeon is here, those people are there. What I don’t prep are possibilities. Who will do what is speculation not fact. Anyway, given that I want to hold lightly to my prep and want to keep it limited in certain ways (as noted above) while still providing for adversity and conflict, I need the system to help me out. It’s a complement to prep (and handles things that prep cannot such as how a given situation will resolve).

Since it’s a new page, I’ll again link my recaps, which are actual sessions run using my homebrew system. For the most part, there’s not much about my homebrew system that’s theoretical (and when there is, I try to be transparent that something is an untested idea). I have an MVP, which I iterate. It’s playable, though some bits (like encounter tables and some monsters) are taken from Old-School Essentials and Basic D&D. It’s really nice being able to find out right away in a session whether and how something works. Some parts are fairly stable, but I’m still working on getting skills to the right place (more issues described here).
 
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pemerton

Legend
You flat out dismiss every example I’ve ever given. Why would i continue providing ones?
You haven't given examples of narrativist 5e D&D.

In another thread you posted this:
Maybe my d&d game has more narrative elements than traditionally thought. Like we aren’t greatly big on character backgrounds driving play - but what players start to establish in play about their characters that does tend to drive play hard.

Like our great old one warlock in 5e d&d wanted to try and start a cult. From there on his cult became a big part of the fiction. It grew, did lots of culty things and even needed set back on the right path when entrusted leadership was leading it somewhat off path. It was far more than ‘im wearing a blue shirt kind of flavor’ but we never battled the cult in direct combat either.
Was this narrativist 5e D&D? I have no idea.

What actions were declared? How were they resolved? What was at stake? Who established that? Who decided what cult-y things the cult did? Who decided that its leadership led it off the path, and how was that decided?

You also posted this:
take my character a tempest cleric. I was interested in taking the weather as omens. (Sometimes even using augury for aid and sometimes making it up myself). Before this character weather conditions were rarely ever brought up. But because I drove that the dm started including it. Can I point to any big thing doing this drove me or the party toward? No, but fictionally it did start to impact all the players decision making process about whether to take a certain course of action now. Sometimes the dm would even intentionally signal good sign or bad sign by changing weather conditions, etc.
Who decided the weather? Who decided whether good or bad things were going to happen, and linked the weather to that? What was the difference between the GM sending you cues and hooks through the weather, and the GM sending you cues and hooks via a quest-giver?

From what you post, I can't tell. I have no idea.

maybe if this is viewed as fairly player driven/narrative it explains why we don’t see such a huge difference in our d&d games and more narrative games.
So this is an example of what I take to be a denial of difference in different techniques and the goals they serve.

But I actually have no idea what happened in the episodes of play you describe. I mean, I could run a module as railroad-y as DragonLance while incorporating your weather stuff, or having the Warlock's followers start to buddy up to the Draconians. Maybe that's what was happening, maybe not.

Of course you're under no obligation to provide concrete examples of play. But until you do so, I'm going to be doubtful that you are playing narrativist 5e D&D. Because all the rest of your posting points in a rather different direction.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think it's a viable and reasonable goal for a system to propose a specific resolution for nearly all declared courses of action, given the constraints of genre.
This is not a remotely feasible design goal, unless the action and consequence spaces are so narrow as to produce something even more caricatured than traditional dungeon-delving.

Here is a possible action declaration, in a context where You (the PC) are in a cavern, water dripping from the ceiling and pooling here and there on the floor. There is a chasm, about as wide as you are tall, between you and the other exit:

I step back, take a run-up, and jump across the chasm!​

Here are some possible consequences:

*The character trips on an unnoticed protuberance on the cavern floor;

*The character steps in a puddle and gets wet feet as a result;

*As just above, but the character slips over because of the water;

*As above, and although the character does not slip over immediately their wet feet mean that they slip as they launch themselves across the cavern;

*The character leaps across the cavern and lands gracefully;

*The character leaps across the cavern but lands ungracefully, grazing their knee and inflaming the soft tissue in their ankle;

*The character, slipping as they leap, plunges down the cavern to their doom;

*Etc​

No mechanical process can encompass all these possibilities without the need for active decision-making. And jumping across a chasm is simpler, as a process, than (say) wandering the streets of the city at night looking for an informant, or (say) collecting odds and ends during the day and taking them to your workshop at night so you can jury-rig a brain-wave transmitter.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Yeah, that's about what I expected. "Writer's room" is once again a way of restating the same objection, and it's getting read differently than intended because the actual objection is flatly denied as a viable play priority, as usual.


This is the more specific definition that I think isn't generally being used, but is being substituted when responding to claims of it.


I'm not proposing that kenada is compromising with another party, but that the design compromises between several designs to achieve the desired goal.



Pretty sure this is the broad reading of the term. We're doing any vs. all differentiation, where it either compromises any decision making outside of character action declaration or must entail all decision making about the narrative.


No deep reading here, I think it's a viable and reasonable goal for a system to propose a specific resolution for nearly all declared courses of action, given the constraints of genre. I don't think it's generally necessary to either default to a generic resolution system, or to require the GM to do on the fly design work. It's fine if it's not perfect. GM-as-adjudicator is the usual fallback, it just should be a fallback, and hopefully can be patterned on similar rules that do exist in the rare cases it's necessary.
Huh?
 

niklinna

satisfied?
This is not a remotely feasible design goal, unless the action and consequence spaces are so narrow as to produce something even more caricatured than traditional dungeon-delving.

Here is a possible action declaration, in a context where You (the PC) are in a cavern, water dripping from the ceiling and pooling here and there on the floor. There is a chasm, about as wide as you are tall, between you and the other exit:

I step back, take a run-up, and jump across the chasm!​

Here are some possible consequences:

*The character trips on an unnoticed protuberance on the cavern floor;​
*The character steps in a puddle and gets wet feet as a result;​
*As just above, but the character slips over because of the water;​
*As above, and although the character does not slip over immediately their wet feet mean that they slip as they launch themselves across the cavern;​
*The character leaps across the cavern and lands gracefully;​
*The character leaps across the cavern but lands ungracefully, grazing their knee and inflaming the soft tissue in their ankle;​
*The character, slipping as they leap, plunges down the cavern to their doom;​
*Etc​

No mechanical process can encompass all these possibilities without the need for active decision-making. And jumping across a chasm is simpler, as a process, than (say) wandering the streets of the city at night looking for an informant, or (say) collecting odds and ends during the day and taking them to your workshop at night so you can jury-rig a brain-wave transmitter.
Lemme go get my 387-page book of "Jumping over a chasm" results tables. It doesn't cover everything, but it's comprehensive enough.

My "Wandering the streets of the city at night" (regardless of purpose) 20-volume set is in my summer home, I'll have to get back to you on that one.

I can't afford the "Collecting odds and ends etc." library. Even the digital version is prohibitively expensive.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I'm not proposing that kenada is compromising with another party, but that the design compromises between several designs to achieve the desired goal.
I’m not following because the other designs don’t do what I want. If I were willing to use those systems, it’d save me a lot of work. I got by for years tinkering with and modifying other games, but I ended up in a situation where I had the opportunity to make something that does do what I want, so I’m doing that. Yeah, there are some things I need to figure out, but I don’t see that as a compromise.
 

Lemme go get my 387-page book of "Jumping over a chasm" results tables. It doesn't cover everything, but it's comprehensive enough.

My "Wandering the streets of the city at night" (regardless of purpose) 20-volume set is in my summer home, I'll have to get back to you on that one.

I can't afford the "Collecting odds and ends etc." library. Even the digital version is prohibitively expensive.

Seems you've never been exposed to any kind of generator.
 

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