D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Shardstone]

Me too. I can't help it if no one likes my ideas.

The woe of the artist.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is my point. If you raise the wizard to or past the LevelUp standard, you need to do the same to even other class.

CoDzilla OP and Batman Wizard OP were different types of OP BTW

Fair enough. I'm all for that.

And OP in play is OP in play IMO. It is about how playing alongside such a character makes you feel in my view.

 

[MoonSong]

@Micah Sweet traditionally, WotC is weary of both metamagic and spontaneous casting. It has been a long learning curve for them. They have been very careful with having them. Just notice how hard they penalized the original sorcerer and how much the current sorcerer has to pay for both. There is no way they will allow wizards to run freely with both while also being able to prepare spells. They won't let wide adoption of spellcssting innovations until they have fully tested it. Which btw is another thing the sorcerer has going for it. They serve as a testing ground for innovation in spellcasting.

 

[Minigiant]

Proposal: Restore and expand the playtest sorcerer.

Concepts:

• Do away with the separation between spell slots and sorcery points. Sorcerers get spell points, which they may use to cast whatever spells they know. This means Sorcerers may burn up all their points casting very high-level spells. Limits can be put in place if this is considered excessive, but I like the idea that the Sorcerer, who lives and breathes power, is the only one who can cast four 9th level spells per day or whatever.
• As the character spends SP, they begin to manifest the power within physically, their sorcerous soul literally taking over their body. They aren't actually at any risk of falling to that power (I mean, unless the player wants to, I guess?) Their exact abilities depend on subclass, similar to Monk.
• Metamagic is soft-reworked, adding bloodline-themed options. Reduce the total number of metamagics, and let every sorcerer have access to all of them from day 1 (except the bloodline-exclusive ones, of course.)
• Have bloodlines do useful and impactful things like adding proficiencies (especially armor/weapon profs) or giving natural weapons or the like.
• Add some new, Sorcerer-only spells, and make some existing spells Sorcerer-only (favor taking from the Wizard-only list, when possible.)
• Give each bloodline a choice of bonus spell lists. E.g. Draconic has element-themed spells, Shadow has one focused on illusions, one on enchantments/fear, and one on shadow conjurations, Celestial has a healing-focused list and a smiting-focused list; etc.

That seems like a pretty decent start.

The Playtest Sorcerer in its full glory is too much for current WOTC. The core problem is that the lead designers can only design what they already know and struggle with new ideas and scare off the community when they force themselves to do a lot of it at once.

So chop it up into pieces.

1. The Mutant/Alien Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is a descendant of a inherent magical being. They get spell slots and sorcery points. Sorcery points power abilities that mimic their magical ancestor.
2. The Mutate/Metahuman Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is changed by a inherent magical being or magical event to link them to the Weave in a irregular power. They only get spell points but get some sorcerer exclusive spells
3. The nonMuggle Sorcerer: The Sorcerer has a spark that lets them cast spells innately. They know spells, metamagic, and sorceries They can learn spells on the fly with limitations

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What subclasses would you do? How do you envision them transforming?

Dragon, Shadow, Celestial, and Chaos to start with. Add Storm, Clockwork, Nosferatu, and Giant over time.

Dragon: Becomes a "tanky bruiser" type as SP deplete, gaining armor, natural weapons/extra attacks, a breath attack, and defenses.

Shadow: Becomes a "lurker" type, a living shadow that attacks from unseen directions and fills opponents with fear...or with puncture wounds.

Celestial: Biblically accurate angel. Disturbing, even Lovecraftian, but in a supportive, bolstering kind of way. You're glad it's on your side.

Chaos: A roiling ball of Limbo/Elemental Chaos. Constantly shifting and changing and teleporting around, warping reality around you.

Storm: You literally become a living thunderhead. Ranged attacks galore, SPEEDBOI (ride the lightning), but fragile like...a cloud.

Clockwork: Not entirely sure yet, but the idea is too fun not to do.

Nosferatu: Blood magic, vampire. Drain enemy life to empower yourself. Weaken if you can't get blood. Stoke fear in man and obedience in beast.

Giant: Size, runes, temperament, endurance, ability to partly support others (giants often build things in myth.)

 

[Mind of tempest]

link broke

 

[Scribe]

Dragon, Shadow, Celestial, and Chaos to start with. Add Storm, Clockwork, Nosferatu, and Giant over time.

Dragon: Becomes a "tanky bruiser" type as SP deplete, gaining armor, natural weapons/extra attacks, a breath attack, and defenses.

Shadow: Becomes a "lurker" type, a living shadow that attacks from unseen directions and fills opponents with fear...or with puncture wounds.

Celestial: Biblically accurate angel. Disturbing, even Lovecraftian, but in a supportive, bolstering kind of way. You're glad it's on your side.

Chaos: A roiling ball of Limbo/Elemental Chaos. Constantly shifting and changing and teleporting around, warping reality around you.

Storm: You literally become a living thunderhead. Ranged attacks galore, SPEEDBOI (ride the lightning), but fragile like...a cloud.

Clockwork: Not entirely sure yet, but the idea is too fun not to do.

Nosferatu: Blood magic, vampire. Drain enemy life to empower yourself. Weaken if you can't get blood. Stoke fear in man and obedience in beast.

Giant: Size, runes, temperament, endurance, ability to partly support others (giants often build things in myth.)

Cool ideas, I'd pull a lot from what Pathfinder did with Sorcerers personally.

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Micah Sweet traditionally, WotC is weary of both metamagic and spontaneous casting. It has been a long learning curve for them. They have been very careful with having them. Just notice how hard they penalized the original sorcerer and how much the current sorcerer has to pay for both. There is no way they will allow wizards to run freely with both while also being able to prepare spells. They won't let wide adoption of spellcssting innovations until they have fully tested it. Which btw is another thing the sorcerer has going for it. They serve as a testing ground for innovation in spellcasting.

Well, seeing as how 5.5 is pretty much finalized at this point, I don't see how what WotC is willing to do is at all relevant to this discussion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Playtest Sorcerer in its full glory is too much for current WOTC. The core problem is that the lead designers can only design what they already know and struggle with new ideas and scare off the community when they force themselves to do a lot of it at once.

So chop it up into pieces.

1. The Mutant/Alien Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is a descendant of a inherent magical being. They get spell slots and sorcery points. Sorcery points power abilities that mimic their magical ancestor.
2. The Mutate/Metahuman Sorcerer: The Sorcerer is changed by a inherent magical being or magical event to link them to the Weave in a irregular power. They only get spell points but get some sorcerer exclusive spells
3. The nonMuggle Sorcerer: The Sorcerer has a spark that lets them cast spells innately. They know spells, metamagic, and sorceries They can learn spells on the fly with limitations

As I said above, 5.5 is pretty much done. What WotC wants and is willing to do in regards to design means basically nothing to what we're discussing. If you have an idea you like, put it out there and let it be discussed without the impotent shadow of WotC already-finished plans hanging over it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah I'd rather that sorcerer leant real hard into the new innate sorcery mechanic, including linking it heavily to subclass similar to barbarians rage. Metamagic has always just felt so bland and almost never influenced by subclass.

I guess that's always been one of my main issues with sorcerer as a whole. Both its subclasses and its main class abilities feel more like an unrelated pile of feats, rather than a coherent class.

I could get behind that.