D&D 5E Level = Challenge Rating

[Yaarel]

Suppose four level 12 player characters have a tough but nonlethal combat encounter against a single opponent that is level 18 (compare Archmage "challenge 12").

What if there is a solo adventure? What level should an opponent be against one level 12 player character, for a tough but nonlethal combat encounter?

 

[mamba]

But as DM I will treat challenge as if it is the same thing as level, then see what happens.

it is not the same thing, that is why 4 chars against one monster with that monster's CR = the char's level is considered an even match

So if you fight 1 char vs 1 monster the char is likely to lose, at least at lower levels

 

[ezo]

Suppose four level 12 player characters have a tough but nonlethal combat encounter against a single opponent that is level 18 (compare Archmage "challenge 12").

Four level-12 PCs vs. a single CR 12 would be a moderate encounter IMO, but a lot depends on the scenario as well...

What if there is a solo adventure? What level should an opponent be against one level 12 player character, for a tough but nonlethal combat encounter?

But a single level-12 PC? Around CR 7, maybe 8. Again, there are some other variables in the scenario obviously.

 

[mamba]

Be that as it may, I would rather have the 2024 Monster Manual give the DM guidance, saying the level of each player should be 4 higher than the level of a corresponding monster.

aren't they doing something like that since Xanathar's (Quick Matchup table)?

 

[Yaarel]

Four level-12 PCs vs. a single CR 12 would be a moderate encounter IMO, but a lot depends on the scenario as well...


But a single level-12 PC? Around CR 7, maybe 8. Again, there are some other variables in the scenario obviously.

Please refer to "LEVELS".

"CR" is opaque, meaningless and notoriously unreliable.

What LEVEL should an opponent player character be, for a tough but nonlethal combat challenge?

 

[ezo]

Please refer to "LEVELS".

"CR" is opaque, meaningless and notoriously unreliable.

What LEVEL should an opponent player character be, for a tough but nonlethal combat challenge?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

For a solo level-12 PC, versus an "opponent player character" would probably be around 9-10th level. Of course, class and scenario still weigh in. Class vs. class is always difficult as class balance is not very good.

At 9-10th level, the opponent will be tough enough, have adequate features, etc. to put up some resistance and offer some offense, but unlikely to be so much as to make the encounter lethal. Die rolls and luck would play a part of course.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I hope 5e 2024 eliminates the esoteric and often imbalanced terminology of monster "Challenge" rating. Instead, refer to "levels", such as a "level 13 Red Dragon", or whatever.

In any case, there exists a direct link between Level and Challenge, via the "Proficiency" bonus. Notice how the monster "challenge" in the Monster Manual and again in Mordenkainen Presents corresponds exactly to a player character "level".


Proficiency: Level = Challenge

+2: Level 0 (Background) = Challenges 1/8, 1/4, 1/2

+2: Levels 1 thru 4 = Challenges 1 thru 4
+3: Levels 5 thru 8 = Challenges 5 thru 8
+4: Levels 9 thru 12 = Challenges 9 thru 12
+5: Levels: 13 thru 16 = Challenges 13 thru 16
+6: Levels 17 thru 20 = Challenges 17 thru 20

+7: Levels 21 thru 24 = Challenges 21 thru 24
+8: Levels 25 thru 28 = Challenges 25 thru 28
+9: Levels 29 thru 30 [32?] = Challenges 29 thru 30 [32?]


Hopefully, 5e actually is obsoleting and phasing out the terminology of "Challenge".

Level and Challenge arent the same thing, because multiple monsters can gang up on a player character, and odds are the player character will win.

But as DM I will treat challenge as if it is the same thing as level, then see what happens.

There is no need to hope for this, they have already told us they are not doing that

 

[grimmgoose]

Best case, they realize 4E had the best monster design, and as much as they can, revert back to that.

That will never happen, so we’ll continue to have terrible encounter math, boring monster design, and a knowing wink/nod to DMs, saying “you got this, champ!” (All for the sake of “backwards compatibility”, regardless of how much damage that is going to cause)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Suppose four level 12 player characters have a tough but nonlethal combat encounter against a single opponent that is level 18 (compare Archmage "challenge 12").

What if there is a solo adventure? What level should an opponent be against one level 12 player character, for a tough but nonlethal combat encounter?

In theory, at least in 4e, the answer would be one standard monster, probably level 10-12 depending on the specific characteristics of that PC, but the DMG actually goes into a small discussion of this stuff. While it doesn't quite say explicitly "playing this game solo is far enough outside the design parameters to likely not be any fun." This discussion includes specific advice for how to handle one-, two-, and three-person games. Three-person mostly boils down to "pick a role you can live without, Controller is probably the easiest option." Two-person suggests either having each player play two characters, using "henchmen"-type NPCs to cover gaps, or giving each character more oomph to make up for the change. Solo games are a real difficulty in basically every edition of D&D, though, so the fact that it sort of dances around the admission that "well...that's gonna be tough and even if you use the other tools mentioned it may not work out very well" doesn't really mean much in context.

As an example of two playing "two characters" each, you could have one person who is a wizard-tinkerer guarded by their automaton companion (Wizard main character + non-sapient Warforged Fighter secondary character), while another could play, say, a Deva Shaman with an "animal companion" (some kind of melee Ranger) in addition to their spirit companion. That way they only really need to roleplay one character with some grace notes from the other, but the group collectively still fills four roles and can thus be used without needing to adjust the math at all.

 

[Yaarel]

Judging by spells in the statblocks of certain Humanoid casters, in Mordenkainen Presents, on average:

level ≈ 1.2 x challenge

Note, statblocks tend to have significantly more hit points than an equivalent player character of the same level. It might help to think of these statblocks as a multiclass that adds extra Fighter levels. Thus total character level might equate the challenge rating, on average.


Hypothetically for a solo adventure, the opponent should be a level that is about 1 to 3 levels less than the player character (roughly equivalent to half of the Proficiency bonus less).

Hypothetically, each of four player characters should likewise have an opponent that is about 1 to 3 levels less.

Examples. A level 5 PC versus a level 3 opponent. Four level 5 PCs versus two level 3 opponents and two level 4 opponents.