Vaalingrade
Legend
Sorry, he had Tenser's Athletic Supporter cast. You take 8d6 force damage for even trying.
God help you if you tried to wedgie him...
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D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
God help you if you tried to wedgie him...
Quickleaf
Legend
Maybe yes. It's a softer version of the "restricted domain wizard" that other folks were suggesting - instead of a hard limit, you have a more permeable limit.
wicked cool
Hero
Use the Bg3 spell list
My concern with this is it would turn back the clock and make the game a lot less fun. The whole fighter is a blocker for the Wizard is a trope few want to play today. Most casters want to cast in melee. Fighters who aren't primarily ranged want to move around the battlefield and those fighters who are primarily ranged tend to want to avoid melee more than the casters do.
Many players don't want the specific constraining "roles" for specific classes. While there are times players might want to be blockers or doorway dodge I think they want that to be a tactical decision on the fly or a specific build for that, not a general strategy as something the game mechanics drive you to based on class.
Warpiglet-7
Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I hear you but the fighter would still do what they do now. The wizard would have to be a bit more careful.
If they wanted to do more “solo”
I suppose their summons spells would provide a line.
So I don’t think the fighter would suffer at all—-what wizard players however would need friends.
Just a thought—-as it never bothered me. Then again the push does seem to be toward every turn being a good one for all players. I get it.
Brotton Goodfellow
Explorer
Some slightly untested homebrew ideas for wizards.
At first level you know 1 first level spell, 1 second level spell, and 1 third level spell from any classes spell list. The only way to obtain more spells is by copying other spells into your spellbook, or researching new spells. You may cast any spell, regardless of level or class, so long as you have it copied into your spellbook.
At first level you know an amount of cantrips equal to your intelligence modifier. You gain one cantrip every other level.
To cast a non-cantrip spell, you have to beat an 8 on a d20. After successfully casting the spell you can’t use it until you take a long rest.
At first level you know 1 first level spell, 1 second level spell, and 1 third level spell from any classes spell list. The only way to obtain more spells is by copying other spells into your spellbook, or researching new spells. You may cast any spell, regardless of level or class, so long as you have it copied into your spellbook.
At first level you know an amount of cantrips equal to your intelligence modifier. You gain one cantrip every other level.
To cast a non-cantrip spell, you have to beat an 8 on a d20. After successfully casting the spell you can’t use it until you take a long rest.
If you play strict RAW it is almost never easier and almost never safer to cast knock and it is much more costly already.
A Rogue can always open a lock for free, with no resource cost, as long as she has time and the DC is less than Dex+PB+20. "Take 20" does not exist in 5E, but neither are checks to open locks limited to a single attempt. So try to open it, then try again, then try again, eventually you will get it unless it is so hard that it is impossible .... which means the DM does not want it opened. This is thematically appropriate too - "The lock on the safe is very, very complex, so the Rogue doesn't open it in 6 seconds, but it finally pops open after 3 minutes of working on it" (30 rolls).
It is never safer to cast knock unless you are certain there are no enemies within 300 feet.
It is also very costly already, you need to use a spell slot, but the bigger cost is to have Knock prepared (or known). That is a VERY big cost unless you know you will need it ahead of time, and the cost increases at higher levels. It is rare that I see any Wizards walking around with knock prepared; even at 3rd level they are replacing a spell like Web, Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step, Magic Missile, Cause Fear, Hold Person ......
Given this, the only time Knock is really better is when you are doing it in combat where the action cost matters AND you actually prepared this spell ahead of time AND the difficulty is high enough that the automatic success through knock is worth the slot cost and Wizard's action AND it is not more advisable to just kill the enemies first AND there is no issue with alerting everyone else within 300 feet ..... that is a corner case indeed.
Same with a lot of other utility spells that outdo skills: Levitate is awesome as far as utility outdoing people who get Athletics for climbing a wall and has some offensive potential too, spider climb makes you awesome at climbing too. Still both of these are very rarely prepared/known given the other options available.
Tongues is more effective than knowing a bunch of languages through race, background etc but you are giving up something like Fear or Fireball to get it, and typically don't have the Charisma to cash in on it.
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greymist
Lurker Extraordinaire
Lots of interesting ideas in this thread. A number of people hearken back to the wizards from AD&D, but as someone who started playing back in the late 70’s, I humbly disagree.
Reducing the wizard’s HD for 6 to 4 doesn’t work for me, as 5E monsters hit harder and more frequently than in 1E. My fix for hit points nerfs the wizard with a buff!
At level 1 all classes get: MAX + AVG + CON hit points where,
MAX = maximum on their hit dice type, AVG = average of their hit dice, and CON = constitution bonus.
The nerf kicks in at later levels, because martial classes get add their AVG at various times as they level up, thus making them even more robust.
Vancian casting (as per 1E) I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to return to this model. Everyone was always coming up with house rules to get rid of this casting system, BITD! Spell point, mana, even spell slots were all seen in 70’s and 80’s. I think the 5E system of slots and preparing spells is pretty solid.
An easy nerf is to stop handing our free spells every level. Make it so the wizard has to find spells in-game. So now, a scroll in a chest could be cast and lost, or the wizard decides to save it to copy into their spellbook back in town.
It’s been mentioned to remove focii and require the use of components. I would suggest using a generic component (floo powder?) for spells with no-cost components and using the specified components for other spells. This forces a bit of resource management without getting into the nitty-gritty of tracking how much bat guano you have left. Again, BITD, we usually hand-waved the cheap components because it just added annoyance.
Certainly, some spells need to be tweaked; and making spells a bit more dangerous to the caster is one way to do it. Fireballs that create a volume of fire which might hit the caster; lightning bolts that bounce off walls and could kill the caster; teleport spells that might embed the caster in solid ground, killing them instantly.
My fix for Leomund’s Tiny Hut was to have it create an actual hut not a force-field dome. A 15 ft square log cabin with a chimney, cooking pot, bundle of firewood, and even clean underwear on each of the bunks. Didn’t attract too much attention when Leomund was trekking on foot through the forests of Greyhawk; not as discreet in the middle of a cavern in the Underdark.
Level 1 AD&D wizards are famous for holding on to their single spell (hopefully Sleep) until just right the moment. Any other battle usually had them throwing daggers or darts; usually ineffectively. My 1E house rules to fix that problem inspired another potential nerf for 5E. BITD I, along with many others, came up with a replacement for throwing daggers: a cantrip-like power that I named Eldritch Knife. The wizard could cast this spell at-will, it required an attack roll, and it did 1d4 damage. No change to the wizard other than he looks more wizardly.
For 5E my planned cantrip nerf, which I have not worked through fully, is two-fold: (1) reduce the damage die from 6 or 8 or 10 to 4 or 6; and (2) remove or reduce the levelling of the damage. This stops the wizard from dealing significant damage (beyond tier 1) with no cost in spell slots. This forces the wizard to be more judicious in the use of spell slots over the day, without forcing them to stop being a wizard in any given turn.
If I allowed multiclassing, I would only allow wizard-levels to count towards levelling-up of spells.
It was mentioned above that concentration should require actual concentration. Perhaps a wizard can only cast cantrips while concentrating; or levelled spells require a concentration check that increases with spell level - failure sees the wizard lose concentration or whiff on the casting.
A final thought, is to limit the spells available to wizards. I have been trying to come up with a way to make wizards stick to their school, but the number of spells in each school is unbalanced. As others have mentioned, limiting most of a wizard’s spells to a specific school/element/type/etc. nerfs the wizard’s likelihood to cover-off other classes’ abilities with utility spells (one of my pet peeves).
Reducing the wizard’s HD for 6 to 4 doesn’t work for me, as 5E monsters hit harder and more frequently than in 1E. My fix for hit points nerfs the wizard with a buff!
At level 1 all classes get: MAX + AVG + CON hit points where,
MAX = maximum on their hit dice type, AVG = average of their hit dice, and CON = constitution bonus.
The nerf kicks in at later levels, because martial classes get add their AVG at various times as they level up, thus making them even more robust.
Vancian casting (as per 1E) I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to return to this model. Everyone was always coming up with house rules to get rid of this casting system, BITD! Spell point, mana, even spell slots were all seen in 70’s and 80’s. I think the 5E system of slots and preparing spells is pretty solid.
An easy nerf is to stop handing our free spells every level. Make it so the wizard has to find spells in-game. So now, a scroll in a chest could be cast and lost, or the wizard decides to save it to copy into their spellbook back in town.
It’s been mentioned to remove focii and require the use of components. I would suggest using a generic component (floo powder?) for spells with no-cost components and using the specified components for other spells. This forces a bit of resource management without getting into the nitty-gritty of tracking how much bat guano you have left. Again, BITD, we usually hand-waved the cheap components because it just added annoyance.
Certainly, some spells need to be tweaked; and making spells a bit more dangerous to the caster is one way to do it. Fireballs that create a volume of fire which might hit the caster; lightning bolts that bounce off walls and could kill the caster; teleport spells that might embed the caster in solid ground, killing them instantly.
My fix for Leomund’s Tiny Hut was to have it create an actual hut not a force-field dome. A 15 ft square log cabin with a chimney, cooking pot, bundle of firewood, and even clean underwear on each of the bunks. Didn’t attract too much attention when Leomund was trekking on foot through the forests of Greyhawk; not as discreet in the middle of a cavern in the Underdark.
Level 1 AD&D wizards are famous for holding on to their single spell (hopefully Sleep) until just right the moment. Any other battle usually had them throwing daggers or darts; usually ineffectively. My 1E house rules to fix that problem inspired another potential nerf for 5E. BITD I, along with many others, came up with a replacement for throwing daggers: a cantrip-like power that I named Eldritch Knife. The wizard could cast this spell at-will, it required an attack roll, and it did 1d4 damage. No change to the wizard other than he looks more wizardly.
For 5E my planned cantrip nerf, which I have not worked through fully, is two-fold: (1) reduce the damage die from 6 or 8 or 10 to 4 or 6; and (2) remove or reduce the levelling of the damage. This stops the wizard from dealing significant damage (beyond tier 1) with no cost in spell slots. This forces the wizard to be more judicious in the use of spell slots over the day, without forcing them to stop being a wizard in any given turn.
If I allowed multiclassing, I would only allow wizard-levels to count towards levelling-up of spells.
It was mentioned above that concentration should require actual concentration. Perhaps a wizard can only cast cantrips while concentrating; or levelled spells require a concentration check that increases with spell level - failure sees the wizard lose concentration or whiff on the casting.
A final thought, is to limit the spells available to wizards. I have been trying to come up with a way to make wizards stick to their school, but the number of spells in each school is unbalanced. As others have mentioned, limiting most of a wizard’s spells to a specific school/element/type/etc. nerfs the wizard’s likelihood to cover-off other classes’ abilities with utility spells (one of my pet peeves).
Horwath
Legend
This,
I hate that in 5E most of AoO are gated behind feats, that are in theory also optional.
I every ranged spell or every Action cast spell provoke AoO, things would play better.
Half of Mage slayer feat should be default rule, with having Disadvantage on concentration if you are in melee threaten area.
