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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 255 54.3%
  • Nope

    Votes: 215 45.7%

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I know a few people in the UK but the odds of me happening to bump into one of them by chance were I to suddenly find myself in London would be near-zero low.
To be fair, populations tend to be a LOT lower in D&D and the history and fiction that inspires it.

And no one is really talking about randomly bumping into anyone, they're speaking of seeking them out, in places that they work, and assuming that there's a reason to believe that they might find them there.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'm not sure anyone thinks the abilities should always work.
And yet, going by the words and phrasing they used, the RAW pretty much flat-out say that they do always work.

And that's the problem: players read this, take it at face value, and then get (IMO legitimately) annoyed with their DMs for saying "no, it doesn't always work".

The problem isn't the players here, nor is it the use of natural language; instead it's the use of absolutes in the write-ups rather than conditionals or maybes.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
To be fair, populations tend to be a LOT lower in D&D and the history and fiction that inspires it.

And no one is really talking about randomly bumping into anyone, they're speaking of seeking them out, in places that they work, and assuming that there's a reason to believe that they might find them there.
If I'm in London and the UK people I know are most likely to be found in Portsmouth or Plymouth*, I've no reason to believe I'll find them in London even if I go looking for them there.

Same is true if my character knows someone on the Astral plane. It's a big place, with an awful lot of wrong places to look.

* - I have relatives in both those places.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
If I'm in London and the UK people I know are most likely to be found in Portsmouth or Plymouth*, I've no reason to believe I'll find them in London even if I go looking for them there.

Same is true if my character knows someone on the Astral plane. It's a big place, with an awful lot of wrong places to look.

* - I have relatives in both those places.
I have friends in London and Plymouth too. But no, of course, if I was in one place and not the other, I'd only expect to find the people appropriate to that place.

When it comes to using the Background Feature, the "chance meeting", I suspect, would only be used by any of us once (or twice) in a pinch, and most of us would not be tempted to overuse it. Because, yes, it would get silly fast. But it's a valid use, IMO, used sparingly.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I have friends in London and Plymouth too. But no, of course, if I was in one place and not the other, I'd only expect to find the people appropriate to that place.

When it comes to using the Background Feature, the "chance meeting", I suspect, would only be used by any of us once (or twice) in a pinch, and most of us would not be tempted to overuse it. Because, yes, it would get silly fast. But it's a valid use, IMO, used sparingly.
I agree with you.

Unfortunately, the rules don't.

By RAW the feature has to work whenever a player invokes it.
 

to me the messengers and others are the way to get messages to your contact. Implicitly that means you can contact the messengers
I agree with you. It does state that, but it isn't explicit - and that is the problem here. Since it is implied, then both interpretations can be deemed correct. That is why I rewrote it.
(To be fair, many of the background features are vague, and for good reason. Because the beginning of the section tells the player to work with their DM. They need it vague to encompass different attitudes towards the game.)
that is because caravans and sailors do not tend to stay local, but to me that still means we are talking about the ones that make a stop in your local area
Like I said, it is a list, not an appositive. It is not a description of the "local messengers." They are separate from one another. Which even begs to question whether those corrupt caravan masters and seedy sailors are "trustworthy" like your liaison.
your contact is the one that can reach other criminals. the contact is likely is a criminal themselves and you all are likely part of that same network
Hence, the oxymoron. You have met the one criminal who know all the other criminals, yet somehow, they are reliable and trustworthy?
 

mamba

Legend
Like I said, it is a list, not an appositive. It is not a description of the "local messengers." They are separate from one another.
as I said, the caravans and sailors do not stay local, but you know them from the local stops.

Which even begs to question whether those corrupt caravan masters and seedy sailors are "trustworthy" like your liaison.
they are trustworthy as messengers, what makes them seedy is that they get involved with criminals, like getting messages back and forth across a criminal network

Hence, the oxymoron. You have met the one criminal who know all the other criminals, yet somehow, they are reliable and trustworthy?
within the network, and I guess as reliable as criminals can be, plenty of movies where something goes wrong within a gang ;)
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
So the real problem, as I see it, is that there are at least three types of background features.

*Ones that are localized and seem only useful at low levels: here we have the Peasant, Noble, Criminal.

*Ones that have small impact but are useful at most levels: I'm going to put Outlander here. Technically, gathering food is a low level concern in most games, but it's not inconceivable that a DM might ban Goodberry and Create Food and Water because they want to extend the survival and exploration parts of the game into higher levels. Or that you find yourself in an inhospitable environment on some other plane of existence where magic is less reliable.

Alternately, the Sage. Information is critical to play, and there are going to be times where this feature will let you research some vital legend, prophecy, or lore.

*Ones that have potentially later game impact: let's look at The Hermit. We don't know what their big secret is. We only know it's intended to be plot relevant. No matter what kind of game you're running, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a bit of hidden lore you could tell the player. The issue is when it's relevant, because you can probably only reward this feature once, with a dramatic reveal.

The fact that all three of these coexist, at first blush, seems odd, since their use can vary wildly in a game. But there's always a possibility to make a background relevant, even without it's feature.

Strahd, a nobleman himself, may not recognize the Noble's family, but breeding recognizes breeding, and he may extend certain...hospitalities to you and your party. Of course, whether that's an advantage or not is debatable, but her we see that a background can matter, even when it's feature has ceased to have much relevance.

On the flipside, being a former hermit is not likely to reward you in any circumstance, save that one moment where your feature pays off. But maybe that's worth it to the player.

And certainly, as you can see, these are tools for the DM. You can use them as plot hooks for players whose backstories always seem to make them orphans with no ties to anything.

That the wording of the PHB stresses that the backgrounds will matter, and that the features are intended to be relevant, and not just fluff, may seem unfortunate. I think the problem is that, for once, the game is trying to help newer DM's.

Older, more experienced DM's know exactly what to do with a backstory. Either chuck it into the bin in favor of your elaborate, rich campaign world, or exploit it ruthlessly (I've seen both ends of this spectrum over the decades).

But a newer DM might look at a background and think it's something to be ignored, but the PHB basically says "not so fast!" The problem is, it doesn't immediately point you to the relevant section of the DMG, or explain why backgrounds are a Big Deal.

When I started playing the game, many old adventures are written pretty much thusly:

*You find yourself in a new place.
*There are monsters about.
*The people need help and point you at locations where strange doings are afoot.
*The PC's are expected to go forth and deal with the threat, often with promise of a reward that will seem insignificant by the end of the adventure ("the townsfolk celebrate you as heroes, have a festival in your honor, give you 150 gp for the party, and you can claim free drinks if you ever come back, but of course this is the last time you will ever see or hear this place....onto the next module!").

In those days, it was sometimes hard to give players a reason beyond "adventure for adventure's sake" "do good because that's what heroes do" and "FOR THE EXPERIENCE POINTS!". And at first, this wasn't a big deal.

But as the story became more important to some over time (especially in the 2e era), needing built in hooks became more important. 2e Kits could help here a bit, but I see Backgrounds as a good way (not the only way!) to give PC's some abilities that make sense based on their history, and something to work with to develop the narrative of the game.

I would have liked to have this handed to me on a platter in 1989-1990 when I was a neophyte DM. I don't need the tool now, but it's nice to have.

That some of us really don't need this tool, and some don't particularly care to have it offered, because they have long since either rejected such notions or have found better ways, is a real bone of contention, as this thread shows (IMO).

5e, as usual, doesn't seem to know who it's target audience is. Wide-eyed newbies who have only heard of this legendary game, or battle-scarred veterans who still poke everything with 11' poles and strip bare dungeons of anything remotely valuable? Ideally, it would be both (and everything in between), and it sure tries, but the fact is, not all of it's parts seem written for all audiences. You find something pitched at one group, that fails to work for another.

Take the adage "no one reads the DMG". In the old days, we read DMG's cover to cover, multiple times, and slowly all the important bits sank into our minds (but even now, the venerable 1e DMG still has surprises for me!). But now, people need more than just a grab bag of information and tips- they need to know what they should be reading right now, instead of slowly discovering the nooks and crannies of the game.

If Backgrounds had a footnote that said "DM's, go to page 26 of the DMG for more information on backgrounds" and that information gave you a step by step method of truly integrating player backgrounds into the game, with a notation saying "hey, experienced DM's, this might not be for you, so here's some options for how to use (or not use) backgrounds in your campaigns!", maybe this would have been less contentious.

Because the first time I ever found my background feature could be relevant and brought it up, it was shot down by the "this guy has never heard of you" argument. Something that could have been avoided by someone saying "hey, background features aren't for all games, check with your DM before selecting one".

But instead, you pick it with the same fanfare as race, class, and alignment. Which is to say, not much at all, and that's just the wrong way to handle this sort of thing if a designer wants this to be an important feature to their game (which the text implies it was) and not just a weird add on (which later supplements imply it is).
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I suspect the designers assumed these background thingies would be used more at low levels when the PCs are most likely still not far from their point(s) of origin; and become less relevant and-or useful as the PCs gained levels and started adventuring farther afield.
That assumes that the characters are starting at their point of origin. In most of the D&D games I've been in or run in my 35-year history of gaming, the characters have started anywhere from dozens of miles to entire planes away from their point of origin.

I simply find it ridiculous that the designers actively decided to make a feature they knew would quickly become useless and not say that anywhere. In fact, the entire point of the Curse of Strahd game is that your characters are ripped away from their home plane at game start, which would instantly make most background features useless, if this supposition were true--and yet again, that adventure doesn't have a single mention of it.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I know a few people in the UK but the odds of me happening to bump into one of them by chance were I to suddenly find myself in London would be near-zero low.
Just wandering around, no, the odds would be incredibly low. But what if you know where those people like to go shopping or drinking or to hang out, and you go to those places specifically to find them? The odds become much higher.

Which is what backgrounds like the criminal assume. You know where criminal sorts go, meaning you can go there, find them, and get one to take a message to your contact. The rules don't say it's automatic or instantaneous. The DM is free to say "how much time to you want to spend searching/waiting," or, "you're going to need to make a Wisdom roll to track them down."
 

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