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No More Massive Tomes of Rules

overgeeked

B/X Known World
We hash it out while playing.

Player: I want to grab the chandelier and swing over the henchmen to land right in front of the villain!
GM: Wow, yeah ... that's cool. Hmmmm, sure I'll allow it but you have to succeed a check agains Acrobativs with disadvantage, otherwise you fall in the middle of the henchmen.
Player: Sounds fair, I'll do it!

At my table players don't have to commit to an action if they don't know the risk they're taking. And it's a standard in my group with every other GM as well.
At the cost of a bunch of wasted time. You spend 20 minutes finding, reading and parsing the rule, only to discover that the thing you declared you were doing is a bad decision. Now you have to retcon your choice and spend another 20 minutes looking up the rules of a different action. (I'm being hyperbolic for effect, of course).
Exactly.

No matter which way you go, you still have to go through the referee to interact with the world. The referee can still change the rules, ignore the rules, etc. Having a rule on paper is effectively meaningless as the referee can decide whether it's an automatic failure, what the DC is, or that it's an automatic success in the moment.
The alternative is to trust the GM to give you a DC and roll the damn dice.
I think that's the one thing a few people in this thread are dead set against.
 

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Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
The alternative is to trust the GM to give you a DC and roll the damn dice.
I love love love the advice Monte Cook gave when 3e was released.

Paraphrased:
  • If you attempt something, start by rolling the dice. If the result is ambigous, look up the rule.
  • If you need a modifier and don't know it right away, use +2 or -2.
  • This will keep the game going without sacrificing too much of rules fidelity.
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
I love love love the advice Monte Cook gave when 3e was released.

Paraphrased:
  • If you attempt something, start by rolling the dice. If the result is ambigous, look up the rule.
  • If you need a modifier and don't know it right away, use +2 or -2.
  • This will keep the game going without sacrificing too much of rules fidelity.
Some great advice.

To me, for players, the best advice is: ask the referee.

To me, for referees, the best advice is: go with what makes sense in the fiction. If the fiction is unclear, pick a probability along with a relevant die, and roll.

If I'm being honest, that's 99% of the rules you need to run and play games right there. Fictional positioning covers damned near everything you need. The die roll covers the rest. FKR for the win.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I know from past experience this board has no lack of people who think "Rulings, not Rules" isn't exactly a virtue.

I have a problem with that phrase in a general sense. I feel like it creates a dichotomy where one shouldn’t exist. It’s not the absence of rules that empower the GM to make rulings… it’s the presence of rules.

I want rules that are functional enough to give me a foundation so that I can use them to make rulings.

I think this is the most effective way to avoid monstrous tomes of rules.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
If I’m understanding your point correctly, the purpose for having all these rules is to provide something like an objective reality, so that not only can players know they can engage in horseback chases or mountainside carriage assaults, they’ll going to have a robust mechanism for doing it. I want that robustness without a large volume of rules, which is why I’m working on a robust conflict resolution process. So far, it’s been going well.

Note a certain amount of my objections tends to be addressed by having a fairly robust core rules process underneath everything. I'm not guessing what will happen if I know that X resolution system will be used and the target numbers will be within Y to Z. It doesn't deal with my issues with mechanical character definition or engagement by itself, but it does increase the number of areas I don't need custom rules for.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
We hash it out while playing.

Player: I want to grab the chandelier and swing over the henchmen to land right in front of the villain!
GM: Wow, yeah ... that's cool. Hmmmm, sure I'll allow it but you have to succeed a check agains Acrobativs with disadvantage, otherwise you fall in the middle of the henchmen.
Player: Sounds fair, I'll do it!

At my table players don't have to commit to an action if they don't know the risk they're taking. And it's a standard in my group with every other GM as well.

That all lands in my "wait to find out how the GM wants to handle it", and I can't say I consider that a virtue in routine handling, either. Its not as bad as "do it and find out" but its still not a virtue.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
At the cost of a bunch of wasted time. You spend 20 minutes finding, reading and parsing the rule,

Care to bet it'll take me close to that long? I'd be prepared to lose money, either with a modern rules set I have digitally or an older one I know well.

Basically, your response assumes more game-time processing than I've had in a game in long time, and even back then, with any frequency.

only to discover that the thing you declared you were doing is a bad decision. Now you have to retcon your choice and spend another 20 minutes looking up the rules of a different action. (I'm being hyperbolic for effect, of course).

The alternative is to trust the GM to give you a DC and roll the damn dice.

And yeah, I consider the latter a much worse alternative. Just so we're clear.
 

Celebrim

Legend
If I’m understanding your point correctly, the purpose for having all these rules is to provide something like an objective reality, so that not only can players know they can engage in horseback chases or mountainside carriage assaults, they’ll going to have a robust mechanism for doing it. I want that robustness without a large volume of rules, which is why I’m working on a robust conflict resolution process. So far, it’s been going well.

You make a lot of good points, and after work when I have time to write a lengthy post I'm going to have to address the board, but on this topic as a short response, I'd say "kinda".

My point is that well written "rules" serve the GM and that the GM's needs and games needs typically outstrip what can be done with a single system no matter how well designed. So, you want a robust conflict resolution system and yes that's a good basis for a game system. And that that conflict resolution system can be leveraged into different minigames is great, but often you need to structure each of those minigames slightly differently in order to get that "objective reality".

To give you a very concrete example, in Pendragon 5e the "Book of Battle" leverages the general tactical combat system to be the core part of a framework for the PC's participating in and influencing the outcome of mass combat by creating a minigame in which the PC's defeating individual enemies using the general tactical combat system has meaning and consequences within the larger fiction.

Now, you might not ever strictly need a mass combat system in any particular game. But any fantasy RPG benefits from it because every fantasy RPG is drawing from fantasy literature where mass combat is a major trope. Yes, it would be possible to replicate something like the "Book of Battle" combat system using just the basic rules, generous rulings, and fiat, but that's actually a major ask of the GM and likely to be a process that evolves a while before it gets truly robust.

And we could go further to say that for all the value of the "Book of Battle" it fails as a generic mass combat engine because it doesn't allow for PCs to take the role of commanders and influence the battle through strategic decision making as well as just tactical leadership. It has reasons for making that choice, and this doesn't mean it's bad rules, but it does leave a blank space for a GM to solve. Likewise, by it's own accounting the "Book of Battle" fails to resolve skirmishes that are two big to easily resolve using the tactical combat engine, but too small for its own assumptions and abstractions. So, there is another potential hole to fill.

I will say that I feel the "rules should be short and concise" party has gone off on a tangent where they are conflating lengthy with restrictive. And I think that those are tangential concepts where you can have either short or lengthy rules that are restrictive depending on how you write them. But proving that is a much longer conversation.
 
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