D&D 5E MCDMs Flee Mortals now on DnDBeyond

[SlyFlourish]

I thought this was the way to do the OGL thing without making people mad. I don't know who originally said this to give them credit, but if your idea for the new edition is to integrate it tightly with D&D Beyond and the VTT, then you create this "walled garden" right here.

If you get all of the big publishers into D&D Beyond and they're giving WotC a percentage, WotC wins. And no one is mad at them. Want to use Flee Mortals in the VTT? You can! Want to do SteveC's Scary Book of Mean Monsters? Well, you're out of luck.

I don’t know if you heard it for me but it was one of my main arguments against WOTC attempting to revoke the OGL. They didn’t need to revoke the OGL, they already have their monopoly with D&D Beyond.

 

[SlyFlourish]

And, if we're being honest, that's exactly how they'd prefer to do things. This is the whole reason for the OGL and CC. Outsource the less profitable stuff to 3PP. And the whole reason WotC tried to pull the OGL and/or charge for its use. They wanted their cut. They just invite all the 3PP to publish on DNDBeyond and they still get their cut. Sales through DNDB will likely far, far outstrip any and all other sales channels. WotC gets the credit from the community and a share of the coin.

This is what I worry about with DDB being the single pillar for 5e. But I don’t think sales there will continue to explode (if they are — we have no idea). The more products posted to DDB, the less each of them will make.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

This is what I worry about with DDB being the single pillar for 5e. But I don’t think sales there will continue to explode (if they are — we have no idea). The more products posted to DDB, the less each of them will make.

Originally I thought you were being overly reactionary, but I think you have a solid point. (Both your original point and your point here).

Still, I believe that there will be a solid "indy" scene - there will be plenty of people who support books that don't wind up on Beyond. In particular kickstarted books (though DDB might try to snap up all the most successful ones).

Interesting times. (Which is, of course, a curse.)

 

[SlyFlourish]

Originally I thought you were being overly reactionary, but I think you have a solid point. (Both your original point and your point here).

Still, I believe that there will be a solid "indy" scene - there will be plenty of people who support books that don't wind up on Beyond. In particular kickstarted books (though DDB might try to snap up all the most successful ones).

Interesting times. (Which is, of course, a curse.)

I don't worry about 5e products managing to sell or get funded from Kickstarters, but I do think they're going to be played significantly less if they're not on D&D Beyond. Maybe that's already true. Maybe it's been true for a while.

I'm trying out a pure Level Up Advanced 5e game for the next campaign in my 18 year Wednesday night group and I can tell they'd love to have a good character builder.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I don't worry about 5e products managing to sell or get funded from Kickstarters, but I do think they're going to be played significantly less if they're not on D&D Beyond. Maybe that's already true. Maybe it's been true for a while.

Maybe. Don't get me wrong, I think that DDB is widely used - but I don't think that it is quite as much of a controlling share (yet) of all the games everywhere.

I'm trying out a pure Level Up Advanced 5e game for the next campaign in my 18 year Wednesday night group and I can tell they'd love to have a good character builder.

Cool! A5e is great. I can't get my group to try it, not because it's not on Beyond, but because they "don't want to learn more rules," (which doesn't hold up well because I know full well that we will adopt 5.24 in September).

Though they are not really "lying" - when we playtested the UAs, I had to make all the characters myself because none of them were interested in looking at the UAs.

I can get away with using A5e monsters when I DM, though!

 

[Distracted DM]

I don't worry about 5e products managing to sell or get funded from Kickstarters, but I do think they're going to be played significantly less if they're not on D&D Beyond. Maybe that's already true. Maybe it's been true for a while.

I'm trying out a pure Level Up Advanced 5e game for the next campaign in my 18 year Wednesday night group and I can tell they'd love to have a good character builder.

What's "funny" is that the character builder in FoundryVTT is getting completed faster than the one on the site.

 

[Clint_L]

Maybe. Don't get me wrong, I think that DDB is widely used - but I don't think that it is quite as much of a controlling share (yet) of all the games everywhere.

Non-WotC 5e games already have a significantly smaller market share, though, so DDB doesn't have to completely dominate to reduce their available market by a potentially crippling amount.

And DDB is already very, very big. So getting your product on there could soon be the difference between viability and failure in the 5e sphere.

Plus, it creates a feedback loop. The more DDB becomes a one-stop shop for 5e products, including non-WotC products, the more players will see being on DDB as mandatory.

Players like me, for example. I simply won't buy a 5e book that isn't on DDB. Because I know I won't use it.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Plus, it creates a feedback loop. The more DDB becomes a one-stop shop for 5e products, including non-WotC products, the more players will see being on DDB as mandatory.

This is why I’m not that excited to see more products on DDB. It further centralizes a platform already dominated by the biggest RPG producer in the world. Maybe the practical side of this isn’t a big deal yet, but I do hear more people saying they don’t bother with material unless it’s on D&D Beyond.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

This is why I’m not that excited to see more products on DDB. It further centralizes a platform already dominated by the biggest RPG producer in the world. Maybe the practical side of this isn’t a big deal yet, but I do hear more people saying they don’t bother with material unless it’s on D&D Beyond.

I guess my perspective is very different, because (me being on here and owning a lot of D&D books on Beyond myself aside) what I DO is sell physical books. This discussion reminds me SO MUCH of the whole "Print Is Dead" discussion that has permeated my business for 30 years. Longer if you look at it like the "Comics are Dead" discussion that has been going on since the 70's.

The only time I EVER worry about Digital replacing Print is from a top-down position: I worry that publishers will move to a digital-only model in spite of themselves. The reason I say "in spite of themselves" is that it has been widely (and long-ly) proven that there IS a market (and a sizable one) that holds out for Print Products. You KNOW that if there WEREN'T, then they'd have cut out print a long long time ago. The biggest reason why publishers prefer digital is NOT SALES. It's MARGINS. They cut out the printer, the shipping, the distributor, and the stores, and are able to sell directly to the customer.

But I would bet that Print Sales are EVEN STILL higher than digital sales. Even in this day-and-age. Even with Beyond being a nice, centralized place for WotC to sell their product with few-to-no middle-men, it might be responsible for their largest area of profits, but it's probably not responsible for their largest area of sales. And even if it IS (in that they've crossed the 50/50 mark) then I doubt that it is by so large a margin that they can, without shooting themselves in the foot, give up on print sales. They'd simply cut out too much of their audience. My proof is only that I think that if they COULD, then they WOULD.

When it comes to 3PP, I absolutely think that "being on Beyond" is going to give you a huge bump. However, I really think that the bump does not come out of their usual market - in other words, the 3PP GAINS from being included, but it doesn't LOSE anything (or barely anything). Nor do the small 3PP who are NOT included. They are left, just as they were before, a very small fish who has to claw their way to success without any help. Exactly where they were before.

Of course there are people who will only buy it if it's on Beyond! They wouldn't have bought it before either! But there is ALSO a market that will only buy it not-on-Beyond. If that market didn't exist, then a 3PP would never have had a chance in the first place.

 

[Distracted DM]

But I would bet that Print Sales are EVEN STILL higher than digital sales. Even in this day-and-age. Even with Beyond being a nice, centralized place for WotC to sell their product with few-to-no middle-men, it might be responsible for their largest area of profits, but it's probably not responsible for their largest area of sales. And even if it IS (in that they've crossed the 50/50 mark) then I doubt that it is by so large a margin that they can, without shooting themselves in the foot, give up on print sales. They'd simply cut out too much of their audience. My proof is only that I think that if they COULD, then they WOULD.

Print vs Digital sales is a very good question... Pre-covid I'd have considered this but nowadays.. I'm not so sure that print still moves faster than digital.