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D&D General Less is More: Why You Can't Get What You Want in D&D

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Don't get me wrong, there are definitely aspects of 5E where the DM is expected to do a lot of the heavy lifting. The designers have at least been pretty generous with monsters, for example, and for the most part over time the monster abilities have gotten more interesting.
The monsters in 5E are, frankly, terrible. Just about every single 3PP monster book blows every WotC monster book out of the water. You're better off avoiding WotC referee material than using it.
In contrast, being a player can feel limited for the non-caster classes unless I play a Battle Master Fighter. I wish there were more decision points in building a character, like how warlocks get Invocations to add another level of customization.
Yep. Martials in 5E get nothing, basically. If you want anything interesting, pick a caster to multiclass into. There are tons of player-facing options. There are 13 classes, each with dozens of subclasses. Hundred of feats, hundreds of spells, etc. There's a mountain of player options. Many of which are insanely good to ridiculously OP.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yep. Martials in 5E get nothing, basically. If you want anything interesting, pick a caster to multiclass into. There are tons of player-facing options. There are 13 classes, each with dozens of subclasses. Hundred of feats, hundreds of spells, etc. There's a mountain of player options. Many of which are insanely good to ridiculously OP.
And that's why Less is More only if you have the right Less


It's hard to say "You don't need all this little add-on bits" if the community spends millions of Kickstarter add-on bits and pumps out tons of house rules open add-on bits.

It's possible the the 5e fan base lose the 5e skeleton but.is not in love with the official add-ons that much.
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
I think that it is somewhat bizarre to call 5e "shelfware." It certainly seems to be getting more use than many other TTRPGs.
Learning of the term "shelfware" just hit me deeply because it can be applied to 99% of my TTRPG books. I'd think that's more about the user (me) than the product, though..
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I am only briefly re-entering to make a small point.

One of the issues that I address, in passing, in the very verbose essay that kicked this off is that we should be careful when it comes to thinking that our own personal preferences are the same as "the community" or even large groups of it.

In addition, we should probably avoid trying to cast aspersions on designers by assuming that we can read their minds.

In my opinion, I think that the following two things are true-

1. The people at WoTC that make D&D are, in fact, quite passionate about D&D. Any time I have seen them speak about D&D, or otherwise engage on the topic, their passion shines through. Of course, part of being a designer for a successful commercial product is that you aren't just designing for your own feels and vibes, but you also have to design for the product's market, and within other constraints (cost/benefit, corporate standards and goals, the "brand" and so on). In other words, you aren't given free reign to do whatever you want. But this doesn't mean you aren't passionate or creative. It's easier, in many ways, to design whatever you want without worrying about things like "sales" or "commercial appeal" or "will people think I have a bizarre fetish for flamingoes" than to have to channel your vision within constraints.

2. The idea that 5e, and its design, doesn't relate to a "younger audience" is belied by the demographics and popularity of 5e. It doesn't appeal to all people at all times, because no product does, but it clearly appeals to a lot of young people. 33% of players are GenZ (1997-2012) according to WoTC in 2023*, and the majority of 5e players never played a prior version.

3. Given the popularity of 5e, and the fact that one of the common complaints we see here (or, at least, a refrain from common complainers?) is that people need to get support for their own playing style within 5e because ... they are unable to find people that will play other games ... I think that it is somewhat bizarre to call 5e "shelfware." It certainly seems to be getting more use than many other TTRPGs.

In summary- you don't have to like 5e (or 5e24). You are welcome to advocate for the stuff you like! But we (and I mean we, all of us) should probably think a little bit harder before we try and confuse our own preferences for what D&D needs to do because it's what the community demands.

All that said ... the community demands that we kill off the bard, because young people hate bards. You can't argue with the truth, amirite?

*I don't think WoTC tracks any younger, but I am welcome to correction.
Type this out again and repost it.

Spot. On.
 

Staffan

Legend
The monsters in 5E are, frankly, terrible. Just about every single 3PP monster book blows every WotC monster book out of the water. You're better off avoiding WotC referee material than using it.
I am reminded of some mentions the devs did while 5e was in playtest that went something like "We played over our lunch break and managed three fights in that time.", which was presented as a point of pride for them. That should have been a warning signal: that kind of thing doesn't happen with monsters with tactical options more advanced than Pack Tactics.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I am reminded of some mentions the devs did while 5e was in playtest that went something like "We played over our lunch break and managed three fights in that time.", which was presented as a point of pride for them. That should have been a warning signal: that kind of thing doesn't happen with monsters with tactical options more advanced than Pack Tactics.
It depends on the length of that lunch, the number of opponents, and the CR compared to the PCs. But it’s not a huge brag. They’re also the designers. They’re going to know the rules better than any player group.
 

Staffan

Legend
It depends on the length of that lunch, the number of opponents, and the CR compared to the PCs. But it’s not a huge brag. They’re also the designers. They’re going to know the rules better than any player group.
My point is that it's not really a brag at all, at least not to those of us who enjoy a bit of tactics in our games. Assuming a one-hour lunch break, that's 20 minutes per encounter (minus whatever time was spent on exploration and interaction) which feels wholly unsatisfying to me. But then again, that might be the kind of encounter they think works with a 6-8 encounter adventuring day, with like 3 goblins in a mostly featureless room.
 

Staffan

Legend
I might have misremembered Mearls's post slightly, but the sentiment is there. The actual post is gone because Wizards keep blowing up their website without any regard to keeping old things available, but Eric Tenkar made a copy along with his own commentary here. The thing I was misremembering was that he had done it in a house-ruled Basic D&D, but posited that doing the same would be a goal of 5e.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The source is WOTC's demographics surveys

  • According to Wizards’ surveys, the player population recently crossed a point where the majority of current D&D plans are those who started playing the game with the fifth edition. Previously, the most popular version of D&D was still the second edition, published in 1989. (“We actually built fifth edition as a follow-up to second edition,” Crawford said at the panel.)
  • The player population for D&D is cross-generational, with the bulk of respondents (48%) identifying as millennials, vs. 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2012).
Source from article
Shame that my favorite part of 2e, the lore, was left on WotC's cutting room floor for 5e.
 

MGibster

Legend
It's my own personal beliefe that D&D can't be all things to all players. I'm not necessarily opposed to the addition of new classes or species, but I don't really see the need to add them willy nilly. Never mind whether we should use the word Shaman to describe a new class, do we really need that class? For me, the answer is very often no.
 

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