Is it fun to plan a heist?

[overgeeked]

I wonder if there is a way to do the lion's share of rolling during the planning? It would become a little more exciting, and players will be forewarned as to where problems might occur.

What would that look like?

Partially play through the heist during planning, including rolls…but then also play through the heist after the planning stage, “in real time” as it were, including rolls. It seem like going from disconnected “writers’ room” play to immersive “real time” play.

You’d just play through it twice.

This is why I like Flashbacks. You play through the heist once but get to do the planning while playing through the heist. No wasted time. You’re not planning for things that don’t actually happen.

 

[Emberashh]

What would that look like?

Partially play through the heist during planning, including rolls…but then also play through the heist after the planning stage, “in real time” as it were, including rolls. It seem like going from disconnected “writers’ room” play to immersive “real time” play.

You’d just play through it twice.

This is why I like Flashbacks. You play through the heist once but get to do the planning while playing through the heist. No wasted time. You’re not planning for things that don’t actually happen.

I think his idea is that the rolls you make during planning fix the circumstances of the heist.

One way I could sort of see it is like you're doing a Skill Challenge, but there's variable outcomes.

It'd still be open to things going sideways unexpectedly, but it'd also be more structured.

 

[Committed Hero]

I think his idea is that the rolls you make during planning fix the circumstances of the heist.

One way I could sort of see it is like you're doing a Skill Challenge, but there's variable outcomes.

It'd still be open to things going sideways unexpectedly, but it'd also be more structured.

Skill challenges is what I immediately thought of.

Say you think up your route to sneak in during the plan, but if you don't roll well enough, you know where your problems will start, and you're able to address them. Or the GM gets one unknown complication for each failure, and you resolve that when it arises.

Or flip it, and each success becomes a free pass during the actual heist. Then it becomes more of a resource management problem.

I'd want some way to grant a bonus to the rolls that incentivizes a player to mimic a planner, because the goal is to make the scene more interesting in the long run.

 

[Emberashh]

Skill challenges is what I immediately thought of.

Say you think up your route to sneak in during the plan, but if you don't roll well enough, you know where your problems will start, and you're able to address them. Or the GM gets one unknown complication for each failure, and you resolve that when it arises.

Or flip it, and each success becomes a free pass during the actual heist. Then it becomes more of a resource management problem.

I'd want some way to grant a bonus to the rolls that incentivizes a player to mimic a planner, because the goal is to make the scene more interesting in the long run.

Yep we're on the same wavelength there. Roll for what the failures will be, and then prepare to try and tackle them in-situ.

Actually a really clever procedure. Blends all the really good parts of both sides of the heist.

 

[Tonguez]

Skill challenges is what I immediately thought of.

Say you think up your route to sneak in during the plan, but if you don't roll well enough, you know where your problems will start, and you're able to address them. Or the GM gets one unknown complication for each failure, and you resolve that when it arises.

Or flip it, and each success becomes a free pass during the actual heist. Then it becomes more of a resource management problem.

I'd want some way to grant a bonus to the rolls that incentivizes a player to mimic a planner, because the goal is to make the scene more interesting in the long run.

So its just a means of randomising the maps encounters on the basis of ‘free pass’ or ‘DM complication’ - I dunno if having that information pre rolled is worth the effort, since you can get the same thing in active play too simply by rolling a successful stealth check.

Which is why I prefer to have pre planning provide a skill bonus or advantage (eg the PC goes and cases the bank, noting guard stations, layout and escape routes - they earn Advantage on later stealth checks when navigating the bank)

 

[Emberashh]

So its just a means of randomising the maps encounters on the basis of ‘free pass’ or ‘DM complication’ - I dunno if having that information pre rolled is worth the effort, since you can get the same thing in active play too simply by rolling a successful stealth check.

Which is why I prefer to have pre planning provide a skill bonus or advantage (eg the PC goes and cases the bank, noting guard stations, layout and escape routes - they earn Advantage on later stealth checks when navigating the bank)

I think if your heist scenario only involves stealth checks thats kinda lame. Even if its just checks thats kinda lame too.

If we're going to the effort to do Oceans 11, theres a lot that has to go down for that level of heist, and smaller scale efforts aren't just being sneaky either. The gameworld can be much more interactable than that.

That said, your way isn't bad either, especially for less complex scenarios.

 

[Reynard]

I think the important part for something like a heist -- or really any scenario that requires extensive planning, like a jailbreak or a kidnapping -- is to play the part that matters and minimize the rest. To thar end, you could fold a few dramatic tasks/skill challenges/whatever into the planning and setup, which inform the state of that part that matters. Spend 15 or 30 minutes, tops, with that stuff then roll initiative(or the appropriate equivalent).

 

[Tonguez]

I think if your heist scenario only involves stealth checks thats kinda lame. Even if its just checks thats kinda lame too.

Not just stealth checks - DM complications can indeed take many different forms, be they wandering guards, locked doors, unexpected security upgrades or wandering monsters/civilians. However those are active complications which pcs can certainly prep for, but not something I’d want to have pre-rolled.

 

[pawsplay]

Planning a heist is a meeting, and meetings are generally boring. Insofar as the plan makes sense, it's realistic, and insofar as it's realistic, real-life heist planning takes extensive casing, is really boring, and often hinges on waiting for a lucky opportunity.

 

[CandyLaser]

It would be more fun if players did it like movie scenes. But they don't/can't.

They don't, because they are players and it's very hard to trust that a GM won't look to exploit a flaw in their plan.

They can't, because movies are scripted, while players must learn about obstacles and come up with plans in real time. A lot of times this leads to attention to unnecessary contingencies, which can be boring to GM.

The best we can do is give competent PCs the benefit of the doubt when possible. Assume they would have the gear needed to overcome typical obstructions, for example. Flashbacks help because they address both issues - they overcome exploitable flaws, and they mimic the deus ex machina of a lot of heist solutions.

I have experimented with having a bare-bones explanation of the location and personnel, and allowing the players to invent obstacles ("there's a four-inch ledge along the penthouse, but we should be able to reach it via zip line from the skyscraper across the street"). The more elaborate the security measure, the more bonuses the party gets. It's a little closer to the movie framework because they are talking like their character would. Plus someone is probably not going to come up with a problem that their PC cannot solve, while homing in on the scenes that they want to have happen.

I would like to recommend the underrated Dusk City Outlaws as a game that makes planning a heist fun. Planning a heist in say, Shadowrun can turn into drudgery for exactly the reasons you describe. It doesn't have to, but I think the large number of people saying planning a heist is not fun is strong evidence that it sometimes, or even often, does. Dusk City Outlaws is a game specifically about executing fantasy heists in a sort of Renaissance Italian city-state. It makes planning fun by mechanizing it. PCs get the description of the job, then they have a 15-minute real time scene to make some tentative plans and strategize about what info and gear they'll need for the heist. Each heist has a time limit - "They're moving the stagecoach full of gold in 3 days," etc. - and so they have a limited number of scenes to gather info and set up their schemes. In so doing, they learn concrete, pre-determined info about the target's security measures and what additional complications might lie hidden.

As long as they can come up with plausible solutions to those problems, their plans will generally succeed - but while they're out plotting, they're accumulating Heat, which goes into the GM's pocket as a metacurrency that they can use to introduce plot twists during the execution of the heist and which they'll need to improvise around. The longer you spend during the recon phase, the more you'll know going in - but you'll also have more Heat, which means more possibilities for surprises. Conversely, if you do the bare minimum of legwork, you might have missed some crucial intel, but the GM won't be able to throw as many nasty wrenches your way.

It's designed for one-shots or short campaigns, with a heist being done in no more than two or, for a really complex job, three sessions. The use of some real-time elements is very clever, as it ensures the game moves along at a good clip. That said, you should be careful with introducing it; some people really don't like having to work under time pressure. I found that imposing a 15m limit on planning sessions was the right amount of time - it was enough to ensure that people stayed focused, and I think there might have only been one time where the players felt like it cut them off before they'd covered everything. I actually have taken that as an informal house rule in all my games, whatever the system.