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D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
Honestly playing to early double digit levels generally, out wizards have not dominated the game.

I think my issue is that they can make things too simple and can swoop in to do others primary thing.

I guess my answer about how to nerf wizards probably applies to situations in which the group thinks the wizard is making the game less fun for others.

When this is the case, what spell or combination of spells are the problem?
 

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My own experience is that wizards are not particularly overpowered; full casters generally are. Bards, clerics, and druids can dominate the spotlight just as easily.
Honestly playing to early double digit levels generally, out wizards have not dominated the game.

I think my issue is that they can make things too simple and can swoop in to do others primary thing.

I guess my answer about how to nerf wizards probably applies to situations in which the group thinks the wizard is making the game less fun for others.

When this is the case, what spell or combination of spells are the problem?
My own experience is that there's a few spells that can end up solving an entire encounter with a single spell slot under the right conditions: force cage can completely shut down a fight if there's only one enemy and they don't need to be killed; just avoided. Most such spells aren't that good unless the conditions are just right; if you need to actually slay the dragon force cage just lets you get a short rest in before the fight begins which is cool but not dominating the encounter. If these kinds of things happen too often, the full caster can be a bit of a spotlight hog.

The simplest way around this is just have more encounters between rests; that will increase variety, make spell slots precious, and generally prevent full casters from dominating all or even most of the encounters. You can and probably should let this happen once in a while - that's Shooting The Monk for wizards - but you don't want it happening so often that the fighter has to wait a month before they get to hit anything with a weapon. But as we know just having more encounters is easier said than done.

But there's another observation here: sorcerers, despite being full casters, don't seem have this problem. Why? My guess is fewer spells known, which means they're less likely to take spells that do very specific things. They take spells that deal damage, because damage is always useful (but it doesn't hog the spotlight). So the "proven" method would be to cut down on the number of spells known/prepared to make it less likely that the perfect storm will come up, making it therefore more rare and special.

New rule: you can prepare a number of spells per day equal to half your level + spellcasting mod. No more domain spells for clerics.

(Although I still feel that just giving fewer slots per day will get the same result without being as much of a fun-drain.)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I wonder how many people would accept the same level of nerfing to other classes:

Fighter
Must choose a single weapon to specialize in.
Only get extra attacks with that weapon.
No self healing
action surge only grants extra attack action
Gain bonus damage equal to prof mod with your specialized weapon

Rogue
Sneak attack starts at 2d6 but only goes up at 5, 11, and 16 levels
Sneak attack doesn't work against creatures with unusual anatomy.
Evasion costs you your reaction and movement on the next turn
Expertise is 1 1/2 proficiency bonus
D6 HD

Cleric
Bludgeoning weapons only
All caster changes mentioned above
Only class with healing spells
No miracles as a class feature
Spells start at 2nd level.
Yeah, I'm down for pretty much all of that (we could discuss the Cleric a bit). Sign me up. :)
 

leozg

DM
The simplest way around this is just have more encounters between rests; that will increase variety, make spell slots precious, and generally prevent full casters from dominating all or even most of the encounters.
Mechanics should support roleplay, not the opposite. This suggestion forces a change in the dynamics of the storytelling.
 

Remathilis

Legend
I'd be curious which specific changes you feel are punitive and why?

And what game experiences you need the wizard to have access to for it to be fun?

Then also, at what point you think it would be balanced?
There are three facets of wizard design I would like to see addressed:
1. Effectiveness. If magic is supposed to be the sole role of a class, then that class should be able to rely on it. As a general rule, I don't like "wild magic" systems where magic has as much an equal chance to TPK the party as it does solving the problem at hand. I tend to find systems where magic is dangerous, uncontrollable or has a high chance of failure to be unfun to play a dedicated caster in. This is not to say magic should be perfect or never fail (see next), just that you ACT of casting a spell should not be a trial in itself.

2. Zero to demigod. The old design of magic is that you start out barely able to carry your spellbook without dying and you end up a high omnipresent being that the rest of the party has to kowtow to. That is bad design. You should start out inexperienced but competent and end powerful but not overbearing. The rise should be shallower. The floor raised but the ceiling lowered. So I'm equally opposed to glass cannon design (d4 hp) as I am to adding more power to the kit.


3. The Fantasy. A wizard should feel magical. They should use magic to do things others can't, but also should use magic mundanely. I don't like systems that limit the magic of a wizard to a handful of users per day/week. That includes removing cantrips or rituals, greatly reducing spells per day, and making resource recovery difficult. I want to play a wizard, not a dart expert who occasionally uses a spell.

All of these should lead to the final aspect: simplicity and fun. Playing a wizard is hard enough, I don't want to add more complications to that.

As I stated earlier, I think the wizard class is fine as is. What it needs is a restructuring of the spells and effects of magic. It needs to slow the strength of several effects, bring game changing magic on far slower than it currently is, and move certain core functions of the wizard (like shield or attack cantrips) to the class features rather than the spell system. Then make the spell slots a less sharp increase but allow them to be easier to refresh. That way, spells don't become the I win card but still allow the wizard to be doing cool magical things most of the time.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
There are three facets of wizard design I would like to see addressed:
1. Effectiveness. If magic is supposed to be the sole role of a class, then that class should be able to rely on it. As a general rule, I don't like "wild magic" systems where magic has as much an equal chance to TPK the party as it does solving the problem at hand. I tend to find systems where magic is dangerous, uncontrollable or has a high chance of failure to be unfun to play a dedicated caster in. This is not to say magic should be perfect or never fail (see next), just that you ACT of casting a spell should not be a trial in itself.

2. Zero to demigod. The old design of magic is that you start out barely able to carry your spellbook without dying and you end up a high omnipresent being that the rest of the party has to kowtow to. That is bad design. You should start out inexperienced but competent and end powerful but not overbearing. The rise should be shallower. The floor raised but the ceiling lowered. So I'm equally opposed to glass cannon design (d4 hp) as I am to adding more power to the kit.


3. The Fantasy. A wizard should feel magical. They should use magic to do things others can't, but also should use magic mundanely. I don't like systems that limit the magic of a wizard to a handful of users per day/week. That includes removing cantrips or rituals, greatly reducing spells per day, and making resource recovery difficult. I want to play a wizard, not a dart expert who occasionally uses a spell.

All of these should lead to the final aspect: simplicity and fun. Playing a wizard is hard enough, I don't want to add more complications to that.

As I stated earlier, I think the wizard class is fine as is. What it needs is a restructuring of the spells and effects of magic. It needs to slow the strength of several effects, bring game changing magic on far slower than it currently is, and move certain core functions of the wizard (like shield or attack cantrips) to the class features rather than the spell system. Then make the spell slots a less sharp increase but allow them to be easier to refresh. That way, spells don't become the I win card but still allow the wizard to be doing cool magical things most of the time.
There are a lot of assumptions from you here on what wizards "should" be. Just remember that you don't speak for everyone.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You do this a lot. I think it is more productive to generally assume people ARE speaking for themselves unless they declare otherwise.
That post in particular went on at length to call out exactly what a wizard is, with absolutely no indication that it was anything but objective fact. That sort of thing bugs me to be honest.
 


Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
There are a lot of assumptions from you here on what wizards "should" be. Just remember that you don't speak for everyone.
I mean, it is valid comments though.

Everyone's posting on what they think wizards 'should' be. Just the exact same, I think that any concept of removing cantrips and reducing them to using crossbows or throwing darts, mentioned up-thread and notoriously in older editions, is hilariously against what a wizard should be, makes it hard to actually play the concept, and rather than Dying Earth, we should be looking at pop culture titans like Skyrim or Warcraft for what most folks think a wizard 'should' be
 

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