D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

[leozg]

I came from Basic and 2e so I'm familiar with this style, and I feel I've grown out of the "infantry unit" style of play. That is, a character having a primary function that they only occasionally access and the remainder of the time they are ineffectual. A wizard casts magic only once in an encounter and the remainder of the time is a crappy archer. A cleric who is a healbot medic. A thief that only uses his skills sporadically. Etc. I don't think they need to dominate every fight with top power, but I much prefer magic and skills evened out so that a wizard can fling fire, not daggers or a cleric can heal without devoting every spell slot to it.

If D&D was more like a CRPG where you control a unit of characters which spread your resources, you can afford to allow individual characters to be far more limited in scope. But in a game where I play one PC at a time, I want the option to do my class role a little more than once a fight per week.

Made my point on How would I nerf the Wizard. Not gonna spend more time on Why would I nerf the Wizard. There's a lot of threads on this matter and I'm here to get some good ideas on How to nerf the Wizard. Have already seen some really good ones.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Just anecdotal...

The wizard I'm currently playing dropped to zero hit points twice in as many sessions, and has had to have his bacon saved from being swallowed whole each time. He's the only one in the party to have needed death saves.

I am not sure he needs nerfing.

This is a plus thread, no?

 

[Umbran]

This is a plus thread, no?

I just thought talking about how my wizard's getting repeatedly swallowed would be funny.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I just thought talking about how my wizard's getting repeatedly swallowed would be funny.

Sounds like making them canonically more flavorful could be an effective nerf then.

Magic = monstrous catnip

 

[CleverNickName]

2. Wizard HD d4.

There have been a lot of comments about Hit Dice, but I'm not sure that reducing their hit points would be very helpful for "nerfing" the wizard. The last wizard I played didn't really need hit points past a certain point. It seems like by the time I got to 8th or 9th level, I hardly ever took damage, and even if I did, it was less than 10-15 points.

14. Back to 3 saves (Fort, Refl, Will) like 3ed.
15. Death saving throw now a DC 15 Fortitude save (and Concentration now a Will save).

Oof. This goes far beyond the "nerf the wizard" topic. You're changing all classes now, and all monsters, and the fundamental way that all spells, abilities, traps, conditions, and death/dying work. I think you'd be happier playing 3E D&D. (And that's not intended to be derogatory...3rd Edition is an excellent system! I played it for over a decade before switching to 5E. But I think most people would rather play one or the other--not try to mix the two.)

I agree with your points about scaling cantrips, though. They shouldn't automatically scale with level. It would be more interesting to give the player a choice, similar to the Fighter's fighting styles.

Like: you know how Fighters get to choose a fighting style at 1st level? "Okay, do I want the Defensive fighting style and get a bonus to AC? or do I want Archery and get that bonus to my bow attacks?" Well, what if the Wizard got a Casting style in similar fashion?

"Hmm, if I go with the Arcane Recovery, I get to recharge a few spell slots. But if I go with Cantrip Mastery, my cantrips scale with level. And Ritual Casting could be nice too...hmm, which one will I choose?"

 

[jmartkdr2]

There have been a lot of comments about Hit Dice, but I'm not sure that reducing their hit points would be very helpful for "nerfing" the wizard. The last wizard I played didn't really need hit points past a certain point. It seems like by the time I got to 8th or 9th level, I hardly ever took damage, and even if I did, it was less than 10-15 points.

Just picking this bit out: if a wizard gets hit big, it ruins their day. And even with d6 HD that happens. I don't think d4 will make a big difference either way, since you'd take an already cautious class and make them more cautious.

 

[leozg]

"Hmm, if I go with the Arcane Recovery, I get to recharge a few spell slots. But if I go with Cantrip Mastery, my cantrips scale with level. And Ritual Casting could be nice too...hmm, which one will I choose?"

This is a really good idea. Have you implemented?

 

[CleverNickName]

This is a really good idea. Have you implemented?

Nope, I just came up with it like 30 minutes ago.

 

[Remathilis]

Ah, but did they think they were good ideas because the classes needed nerfing relative to each other? Or were they suggested because they were "realistic"? Or because they enhanced niche protection? Or because they made play "grittier"? Or to serve some other game design goal?

Yes? All of the above?

I tend to feel that most of the house rules for D&D use a chainsaw where a scalpel is needed. And a lot of the proposed changes are less to do with making the game fun and balanced and more to do with punishing the player for wanting to do their role effectively.

I am not against nerfing the wizard. I am against cutting his arms and legs off and claiming he's still balanced because he can crawl using his tongue. I want to still have fun while playing my character, and as a wizard I still want the fantasy of casting magic to overcome obstacles. I don't want to go back to 1 spell a day and then toss darts and hope my 4 hp and AC 10 will get me through the night. I don't want magic to be unreliable, costly or random. I want it to be balanced and fun.

So that was my point with other classes: you can legitimize any and all of those changes using any metric you want, but I gotta ask if you are considering how fun those changes make playing that character.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes? All of the above?

I tend to feel that most of the house rules for D&D use a chainsaw where a scalpel is needed. And a lot of the proposed changes are less to do with making the game fun and balanced and more to do with punishing the player for wanting to do their role effectively.

I am not against nerfing the wizard. I am against cutting his arms and legs off and claiming he's still balanced because he can crawl using his tongue. I want to still have fun while playing my character, and as a wizard I still want the fantasy of casting magic to overcome obstacles. I don't want to go back to 1 spell a day and then toss darts and hope my 4 hp and AC 10 will get me through the night. I don't want magic to be unreliable, costly or random. I want it to be balanced and fun.

So that was my point with other classes: you can legitimize any and all of those changes using any metric you want, but I gotta ask if you are considering how fun those changes make playing that character.

I'd be curious which specific changes you feel are punitive and why?

And what game experiences you need the wizard to have access to for it to be fun?

Then also, at what point you think it would be balanced?