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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You almost make we want to read Dracula again, but I disliked it so much I am loath to try. Of course that was something like 35+ years ago so my opinions may have changed!
The greatest criticism I've heard of Dracula is that it's not written as one continuous, straightforward narrative, but rather as though it were an actual collection of journals, notes, papers, and other related things, an "epistolary novel". It goes full-bore for that expression and doesn't apologize for it in the slightest.

Frankenstein, by comparison, pretty much is "just" a novel (albeit a very innovative one for its day), and in some sense is thus more readable. IIRC, Dracula has an actual recipe in it (paprika hendl, it seems to be called?) But there's a reason it's both his most famous work, and one of the most famous works in all of English fiction. Its influence can hardly be overstated. In fact, Dracula the character is actually responsible for both modern vampires and modern werewolves, who allowed traits associated with vampires to bleed over into werewolves and vice-versa.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So how do you expect them to create a character that dives into the setting?
I expect them to use their imaginations and just make something up.
"Just make something up" does not do what Reynard explicitly asked about though: "a character that dives into the setting". Inventing a character completely from whole cloth, without any awareness of the setting's context, contents, themes, or style is nearly guaranteed to not be diving into the setting. They might as well be aliens, or else so generic that they could fit in anywhere because you wouldn't notice them anywhere.

(Also, I love the new profile pic @Reynard, very stylish.)
 


EthanSental

Legend
Supporter
How much diving is considered diving in for character creation in a setting? Does a google or wiki search of a location on a GH map enough or are we talking saying my parents ran a shop in said city and the scarlet brotherhood was shaking them down and I grew tired of it and….go from there. I’ve never played a campaign in GH, or Eberron but quick search like that tend to get my imagination going to want to learn more about it. Heck played my second CoC session a couple weeks ago and found myself looking up 1920 marine biologist for a premade person for the game just to make it more fleshed out.

I enjoy the civil back and forth on people’s game style, interesting to me to see the wide range of styles.
 

Meech17

WotC President Runner-Up.
Importantly, most of the discourse about ATLA and LOK came out well after the original series ended. As in, YouTube content creators--who are the bread-and-butter of Gen Z and Gen Alpha--talk about it constantly. In essence, we have a very unusual situation where the media of the generation that preceded the current one(s) has been preserved, in a way that normally doesn't happen, because the relatively new medium of video essays, LPs, reaction videos, etc.

It also matters, I think quite a bit, that Millennials were kinda spoiled for great TV adaptations of existing works (e.g. the DCAU, ATLA, Samurai Jack, Animaniacs, Gargoyles, Courage the Cowardly Dog, etc., etc.), widely-beloved educational media (Bill Nye, Carmen Sandiego, Arthur, etc., and arguably films/miniseries like The Civil War and Apollo 13), and a spectrum of other things.

Steven Universe, She-Ra, MLP, Infinity Train, Voltron, and The Owl House are major ones I know of that are varying degrees of "more recent," and I'd expect all of them to have a meaningful impact on the kinds of things Gen Z and Gen Alpha are looking for. Maybe Legend of Korra as well, though even for younger generations, I don't think it has landed quite as well as the original did.

Notably, these shows often feature predominantly female casting (SU, She-Ra, MLP), numerous female main protagonists (She-Ra, MLP, some seasons of IT, TOH), implicitly or explicitly LGBTQ/nonbinary/asexual characters (sometimes including main protagonists), explicitly non-white central characters if the characters are humans (Korra, TOH), more direct and empathetic representation of neurodivergence (e.g. characters who are explicitly or implicitly on the autism spectrum or AD[H]D), and a penchant for forgiveness (albeit not necessarily redemption) of characters who have been more self-sabotaging than cackling-madfolk evil rather than passing final judgment even if the things they've done have been pretty screwed up (SU, She-Ra, Korra, to a certain extent MLP).

I would expect all of these to factor in to their preferences. Literary stuff seems to be moving in similar directions as well, e.g. what I've heard about the Percy Jackson books, the Hunger Games books, the Locked Tomb series, and more.

This is...potentially going to have to cross swords with some of the assumptions baked into the Greyhawk concept, like innate humanocentrism/humanosupremacy, which won't appeal to folks who enjoyed most of the TV shows I mentioned above (I'm pretty sure Korra is the only one that has exclusively human protagonists? The spirits are allies, bystanders, or enemies, never central characters.) Anthropomorphic animals, humanoids with clearly nonhuman characteristics (e.g. Scorpia), devils/demons as deuteragonists, literally talking ponies...Gen Z media embraces a very wide range of nonhuman entities as equal or even superior to humans.

We can also look at negative influences. Game of Thrones was a big deal...but it crashed and burned, HARD, which may sour a lot of people on the constantly grim-and-gritty realpolitik angle that some of Greyhawk leans into. Superhero media has taken a pretty steadily "grime it up" approach since at least The Dark Knight and possibly earlier, and multiple generations are kinda sick of having "heroes" in name only and "villains" who are often significantly more sympathetic (or, worse, a black-on-black morality where your choices are "serial sex offender and murderer" vs "heartless 'I did what I had to' underground rebel" and anyone who shows a lick of human decency rarely lives to regret that choice, e.g. The Boys.) Nuance is good--and we see that in things like Invincible--but so much of "nuance" has been either ham-fisted or bad-faith over the past two decades.

So...I think I have to echo the overall sentiment: What, exactly, in Greyhawk is particularly appealing? Because I think there's major potential for this to blow up in WotC's face if they handle it wrong. If the old fans feel 5e Greyhawk is a sanitized, kid-gloves "no judgment allowed" zone, they'll turn on it faster than you can say Gary Gygax. But even that much change might be a major turn-off to current teens and early twentysomethings who are likely to desire cultural inclusivity and physiological/behavioral diversity.

I've been wrong about plenty of things in my life, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here, too. But I can't shake the feeling that WotC is banking on "it's Greyhawk, the old hands love Greyhawk, they're guaranteed buy-in, so we can focus on courting the new fans," and...well. As said, I foresee that blowing up in their faces.
This could perhaps provide good opportunities. Supposedly the new DMG is using Greyhawk to help show how to build campaigns/campaign worlds. They could use it as an example for how to adapt campaign worlds as well. I think that's a very important, and common step for DMs. You can use an existing setting, you can make your own from scratch, or you can take the third route, and take an existing setting, or parts of an existing setting and re-flavor it, or change it to suit your needs.
 

dave2008

Legend
The greatest criticism I've heard of Dracula is that it's not written as one continuous, straightforward narrative, but rather as though it were an actual collection of journals, notes, papers, and other related things, an "epistolary novel". It goes full-bore for that expression and doesn't apologize for it in the slightest.
Oh I have greater criticism than that for sure. However, I am now feeling compelled to read it again before I speak of them. I actually don't mind the collection of journals approach myself.
 

Remathilis

Legend
It's important to remember that Dracula, much like Shakespeare, wasn't viewed as art by it's contemporaries. It was schlock made for the masses like Harry Potter today, beloved not necessarily for its art but for the fact that the ideas in it transcend any limitations of the author or medium.
 


The greatest criticism I've heard of Dracula is that it's not written as one continuous, straightforward narrative, but rather as though it were an actual collection of journals, notes, papers, and other related things, an "epistolary novel". It goes full-bore for that expression and doesn't apologize for it in the slightest.

Frankenstein, by comparison, pretty much is "just" a novel (albeit a very innovative one for its day), and in some sense is thus more readable. IIRC, Dracula has an actual recipe in it (paprika hendl, it seems to be called?) But there's a reason it's both his most famous work, and one of the most famous works in all of English fiction. Its influence can hardly be overstated. In fact, Dracula the character is actually responsible for both modern vampires and modern werewolves, who allowed traits associated with vampires to bleed over into werewolves and vice-versa.
Personally, I love epistolary novels. Stephen Brust and Emma Bull have a great one from the 90/, “Freedom & Necessity”.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
That's the beauty of something like Greyhawk: discovery in imaginative play.
That sort of runs contrary to the initial statement that @MGibster wanted the players to initially tie their characters to the setting. For that to happen, everyone around the table has to know more about the setting. Discovery through imaginative play is better IMO -- it means you can start with kind of a blank slate and when you encounter something in the world that piques your interest, you can suggest it be part of your backstory. but that wasn't what was suggested here.
 

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