Dependency on Character Creation Apps?

[MichaelSomething]

There's always PBTA game. No complex character creation there.

 

[Retreater]

There's always PBTA game. No complex character creation there.

That's probably a good idea for a palate cleanse after 4e.

 

[Velderan]

Its not just the plus, but also extra basic damage dice. There's an optional rule for just baking it into the characters at the appropriate levels who's name escapes me at the moment.

Automatic bonus progression

Automatic Bonus Progression - Rules - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

This variant removes the item bonus to rolls and DCs usually provided by magic items (with the exception of armor’s item bonus) and replaces it with a new kind of bonus—potency—to reflect a character’s innate ability. In this variant, magic items, if they exist at all, can provide unique special...

2e.aonprd.com

 

[Emberashh]

Something else to keep in mind is that PF2E in particular was pretty much designed specifically for its fans.

If you're not the type of person for whom it just clicks, there's probably more than a few things to take issue with in terms in how it does things, and some of those are going to make the game unpalatable as a whole.

 

[Velderan]

Something else to keep in mind is that PF2E in particular was pretty much designed specifically for its fans.

If you're not the type of person for whom it just clicks, there's probably more than a few things to take issue with in terms in how it does things, and some of those are going to make the game unpalatable as a whole.

Not sure how that doesn't apply to every TTRPG ever made.

 

[Emberashh]

Not sure how that doesn't apply to every TTRPG ever made.

Not every TTRPG was made specifically for a small audience. Many were, and PF2E is one of them.

After all, while its not unheard of for DND in particular to have a lot of communities yearning for older editions (OSR), that Pathfinder has a community like that is an oddball in RPGs. Other than their big brother DND and may be Vampire or COC, I haven't seen many other RPGs that have such a substantive shift from one version to the next that that RPGs entire audience splits.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Automatic bonus progression

Automatic Bonus Progression - Rules - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

This variant removes the item bonus to rolls and DCs usually provided by magic items (with the exception of armor’s item bonus) and replaces it with a new kind of bonus—potency—to reflect a character’s innate ability. In this variant, magic items, if they exist at all, can provide unique special...

2e.aonprd.com

Yup. I have somewhat conflicted feelings about it, but for people who don't want the "chase the runes" game, its right there.

 

[Blue]

I'm generally torn about using them too much because 1) they're convenient but 2) they aren't all very friendly about adding custom content. So while most of my players use Hero Lab for the 5e game I run, we've struggled with custom content because it is NOT easy to do.

So agree. I remember struggling trying to put in some custom content to a different character builder, PCGen, back in the 3.5 (or was it 3ed) era. Not fun, and I knew coding.

 

[Blue]

I will say that when you ask your players to update their characters, they learn the rules; full stop. You may be able to kill two birds with one stone for your 4e group - share the documents with them and wish them luck; and offer to join them 1x1 to show them how to do it.

In the extended group of D&D players, there are several who use apps to build/manage their characters and they are not in the slightest forced to learn the rules when updating them.

Even if they updated them from the books, it would teach them character advancement rules, which aren't what's in use at the table.

But since they use apps, they don't even know those. Or rather they can get new features and not even remember they exist by the time the next session rolls around.

 

[Anon Adderlan]

If a RPG functionally requires a character creation app then it isn't a tabletop RPG. Yet a surprising number of so called TTRPGs are beyond most people's ability to play as intended without one. There's a reason MtG became the perennial hit it did, and the way it manages presentation and complexity is a big part of it.

Ultimately all design is human design, and ignoring human limits when designing is simply bad practice.

That is a bit like saying any game that can't be played using d6s is too complex.

No, it's not.

Character builders are a tool. If they enable a particular style of game that people enjoy why crap on that?

Because for most they're a cost to participation, not a reason for it.