PC's fighting NPC's who are classed...

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'd be careful, some classes are more powerful as NPCs.

For instance, NPC spellcasters are almost always prepared for combat, with high magical ACs. Many published adventures have spellcasters who heard you from another room and have already cast 9 spells on themselves (I've counted). Prepared, and since they just cast their spells, they have little need to worry about defensive spells running out during combat. Furthermore, NPC spellcasters can cast all of their spells in a combat, whereas your PCs will need to save some for later. (This applies to psions as well).

Druids are even more dangerous: Which of those squirrels is the druid, spying on you? No DM forces their PCs to make Spot checks to see "suspicious" squirrels. NPC druids often have more animal companions as well.

Some psions will be very dangerous: any that use polymorph self and that also have mind-control or ranged attack powers. Picking powers that don't highlight the psion (eg mass concussion covers the area in slime, but who done it?) will really hurt the PCs.

Monk NPCs will be a little more useful (=dangerous): They can use all of their stunning attacks right now, and not worry about later.

Barbarians are less useful: They are only going to rage once in combat anyway, so you might as well give them four levels of fighter and specialize.

 

[pontus]

I'd be careful, some classes are more powerful as NPCs.

Nice list, but you forgot to mention the sorcerer directly. PC sorcerers actually have to pay attention to what spells they pick, but when you're creating a mid level NPC sorcerer, just take haste, slow and fireball and you're set.

 

[poilbrun]

Yesterday, I had my 2 players who had characters of level 4 face 4 NPC of level 2 and they nearly got killed. My players had a cleric and a rogue as characters, and the enemies were barbarian. They were very happy when I gave them 2 rounds before facing the boss of the 4 barbarians, a level 5 barbarian. This encounter was very chalenging, as the cleric went down to -6 hitpoints before the rogue was able to kill the enemy before giving him a potion of cure light wounds.

My players are now 5th level, and thus far, they have only encountered 5 monsters : a group of 4 orcs and a water mephit. The only other monsters they have faced were a group of goblins, but they were all rogues, and thus NPCs instead than just monsters... I find it a lot more original to have NPC fight the PC instead of monsters. After all, why should every goblin only have 4 hp...

As a matter of fact, I remember killing 3 players who had level 15 characters by setting them against a kobold. They acted as if the kobold wasn't a threat, but I believe that no matter the race, a level 20 sorcerer is a threat no one should ignore!!

 

[eXodus]

i have challenged my party with a few classed npcs now and then.

firstly there was a combat with a 2nd level goblin cleric.

then they faced a 3rd level orc barbarian.

they also took on a 2nd level rogue hobgoblin.

i think it is important to mix things up. there is no reason every orc should be from the book. nothing surprises the party like when they realize some of the cannon fodder is not actually fodder.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

For instance, NPC spellcasters are almost always prepared for combat, with high magical ACs. Many published adventures have spellcasters who heard you from another room and have already cast 9 spells on themselves (I've counted).

Which is often really unfair.

Think about it:

1-The enemy wizard heard you.
2-He starts casting defensive spells.

Shouldn't you now get a chance to hear him? Unless all his spells are prepared with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, he is now loudly chanting!

Sorry to highjack the thread. It's just a minor grip I have about some adventure module. And I'm the DM! I can only imagine how annoying this is for the players if the DM doesn't allow a listen check to hear that sort of things.

 

[green slime]

...mass concussion covers the area in slime, but who done it?...

It wasn't me, I swear!

(Post count +1!!!)

PC vs NPC parties make the best, most memorable challenges, IMO. Running batles against a well oiled team...Ah the memories

 

[novyet]

I use classed npc's all the time, and yes it can be very deadly against the pc's, generally having the same number of npc's roughly one or so level's beneath them is a very good challenge. Having equal level npc's can be an extremely hard encounter, and higher level if not executed with a plan by the pc's can usually become a bloodbath pretty quick. (Not that I know this from personal experience....cough...cough.. )

 

[shilsen]

PC vs NPC parties make the best, most memorable challenges, IMO. Running batles against a well oiled team...Ah the memories

I agree. That was something I used to do a great deal in 2E, and the best fights always involved PCs vs NPCs. The fact that you can have monsters with classes is one of my favourite things about the new rules.

My players are going to run into an NPC party soon, partly because they need taking down a peg or two, and partly because they're abysmally bad at tactics and using all the options that 3e gives you, so being given a tough fight by lower-level NPCs who fight smart would be an example of how they can be more effective.

 

[wolff96]

Running batles against a well oiled team...

Well-oiled team?

They trying to get a bonus on their grapple and escape artist checks?

Seriously, though, a team of NPC adventurers makes a great challenge and is a lot different than just running into a few more classed/advanced monsters.

Another fun thing: Throw a paladin into the opposing team. (Paladin can be deluded, mentally controlled or whatever if necessary.) It's a GREAT way to make the PCs wonder if they're doing the right thing. I tried this once (without thinking it through) and the players spent the rest of the session arguing about whether or not they were doing the right thing if PALADINS were opposing them... Muhahahah...

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hmm. I seem to have had different experiences from most of you.

Let's assume the PC and NPC parties have the same number of people, are all the same level, and are all the same (or at least equivalent) classes. Let us also assume that they each have the same time to prepare. That is, either the PC and NPC spellcasters are both loaded on combat spells, or they both have an equal mix of combat and non-combat spells. Let's assume equal magic items.

Let's also assume that this is the only encounter both parties have faced that day, so nobody is wounded or low on spells. In other words, all factors are equal.

That means the PCs have a 50% chance of winning, right?

Wrong.

In my experience, all things being equal, PCs win most of the time. Why? Because each player knows his character, knows his abilities, his strengths and weaknesses. More to the point, he's had at least a few levels--possibly a lot of levels--to learn how to make best and most efficient use of his abilities.

The DM, OTOH, has probably only played these NPCs a few times, if ever. He hasn't had the entire campaign to figure out the precise best combination of spells, attacks, etc. to take advantage of these NPCs' abilities. And he can't even devote all his attention to making the most of any one character, because he has to focus on three to five (assuming average sized groups).

In an "equal" fight, it's the PCs who seem, in my experience, to have the advantage.