D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

The thing about orcs in Greyhawk, or anywhere else: You can still have orc populations that don't get along with neighboring human/elf/dwarf/etc. populations without them being definitionally evil - just give historical/political reasons for the conflict, like generations-long competition over resources and the like. You can also still have purely evil orcs, just don't make them the only orcs the setting has to offer.

That's really all there is to it...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe I'm giving WotC too much credit, but I rather doubt they're going to put a big flashing sign in the DMG highlighting one of the most controversial elements still plaguing the game. I'm hoping they learned from the Hadozee.

Oh, I doubt they will too. It makes no sense to go down the list and say "well, this was that and that was this and this was how..."

It is an example chapter on building a campaign setting, not an example chapter on how to modernize greyhawk.

The point is more that acting like this is some monumental task that will require in-depth explanations to preserve the integrity of the setting... is kind of silly. Greyhawk had good orcs. It was done. They don't need to act like it is shattering some fundamental part of the setting. It isn't difficult to slightly edge one or two details that only the most dedicated fans have memorized from 40 year old books to make things work for the modern day. It is kind of trivial.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Player characters tend to need more framing and bonds to the setting than random monsters. They are going to be in every session and who that are in the setting matters a lot more than a random 4 armed blue gorilla that is killed in a fight.

In shocked that so many people are saying "Nah. It'll be fine" when not having a place in a setting is a Top 5 reasons DMs ban races and classes.

Okay, let me fix it for you.

Here was the original text for Orcs from the wiki: Orcs believe that in order to survive they must expand their territory, and so they are constantly involved in wars against many enemies: humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, and other orc tribes

Now, I shall magically create a place in the setting for good orcs. Ready? "Some Orcs believe that in order to survive they must expand their territory, and so they are constantly involved in wars against many enemies: humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, and other orc tribes. Others have made treaties with their neighbors, and lay claim to the wild lands those neighbors cannot conquer"

Tadah! Now, here's the real question... did I even need to do that? Could I, in the course of making examples of the land, have just... named two orc tribes, one set on conquest the other with a trade deal?

What about the goliaths? Well... they are related to Giants, they are giant-kin. The giants exist in Oerth. The Firbolgs are already there, and you just need to... have the same lore for Goliaths that they currently have. Mainly: Towering over most folk, Goliaths are distant descendants of giants. Each Goliath bears the blessings of the first giants—blessings that
manifest in various supernatural boons, including the ability to quickly grow and temporarily approach the height of the Goliaths’ gigantic kin. That completely works, no need to make them Half-Giants, they aren't half-giants. Where do they live, well, this is what it says about Giants: Giants are found throughout the Flanaess, though the vast majority of giant populations are concentrated in and near the Yatil-Hellfurnaces and Corusk-Rakers mountain chains. So... same thing works, right?

Why did no one see them before? Well, both of those mountain ranges are in the distant, far-off lands. Or maybe they migrated here from across the desert or the ocean.

The issue isn't "DMs are going to ban these things at their table because WoTC didn't properly place them in the DMG example chapter on how to build a campaign setting and ruined the sanctity of Greyhawk!" The real issue is people who are going to demand THEIR version of greyhawk remains unchanged from the 80's because anything made by WoTC is stupid and dumb and ruins their perfect setting.

 

[Minigiant]

The thing about orcs in Greyhawk, or anywhere else: You can still have orc populations that don't get along with neighboring human/elf/dwarf/etc. populations without them being definitionally evil - just give historical/political reasons for the conflict, like generations-long competition over resources and the like. You can also still have purely evil orcs, just don't make them the only orcs the setting has to offer.

That's really all there is to it...

I'm not even saying there won't be good orcs in the DMG's Greyhawk.

My prediction is that WOTC is going to create a ultra generic setting and paint Greyhawk names over the people, gods, nations, and features there for nostalgia bait.

Whereas displaying how you create a new setting from scratch using themes, styles, and aspects of your choosing would be 1000x better for guiding a DM on how to make or use a setting.

 

[Azzy]

If even WOTC does broad strokes, Greyhawk has a history.

So does every setting. Greyhawk also has a history of being a kitchen sick.

So the onus is one WOTC to either explain "Where the heck did Dragonborn come from?" or teach DMs how answer that question.

That's the easy part.

Is Greyhawk getting Spellplagued?

Probably the opposite—they are probably going to unwind the setting back to 576 CY so that it reverts back to the broad strokes of the Folio/Boxed Set.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That's the easy part.

They came out of the crashed spaceship in the Barrier Peaks.

But really, that goes back to "what do you teach beginners about worldbuilding?" And the starting point, is not everything needs an explanation. The villagers living in Noware-on-Sea don't know everything (or indeed much at all) about the world they live in. The DM doesn't need to decide on the answer to questions until the players ask them.

A major thrust of the DMG needs to be to encourage as many people as possible to become DMs, so you need to present worldbuilding as something simple that does not require a lot of work; not something immensely complicated that requires rewriting the core rules and knowing every detail of the world's history and geography from the start. Tolkien spent a lifetime world building, and never finished. The key thing beginners have to learn is "don't try to be Tolkien".

 

[Azzy]

Fair. With Greyhawk it is indeed easy to add something new. I just feel that the settings origin as the personal original setting of one of the game's creators made during a very early period of the game's history should be respected and considered when deciding what and how to add new things, and I feel there are folks here who see no good reason to give that consideration.

It should be noted that the Greyhawk that was published in the 80' Folio and 83' Boxed Set, is rather loosely based upon Gygax's home setting and is distinct from it. So, we shouldn't conflate them. Regardless of what WotC chooses to do in the DMG, it will be miles better than the post-ouster/pre-From the Ashes material (like the not-very-well-received Castle Greyhawk module).

 

[Demetrios1453]

If I understand correctly, the world of Oerth hasn't been fully described - so maybe the Dragonborn come from, I don't know, from the country of X on the continent of Y?
I'm not saying that they will do it right or respectfully; I can't know that. But I don't really get why introducing new elements to a world that has only been described in broad strokes would be considered problematic.

Once you get outside Eastern Oerik, things start getting vague. Western Oerik actually has two contradictory canons that some Greyhawk fans have spent decades trying to weld and reconcile with each other. Southern Oerik is nothing but names that suspiciously resemble Earth locations (a desert country named Erypt, anyone?). So, yeah, there would be no issue with dumping a dragonborn country out there (other than grognard whining). Or even just say, "They come from out west somewhere," and just leave it at that.

 

[Azzy]

2024 DMG Greyhawk’s entirety is going to be as a chapter as a sample setting, which you are speculating what it will present. It is not a full box set, much less an entire hard cover.

Any setting summarized in a chapter necessarily gives DMs work.

And for Greyhawk, that's par for the course—the original Folio and Boxed Set were very broadstrokey (by design). DMs were supposed to flesh out the setting to make it their own.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I’m beginning to wonder how full of *#%! they are.

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