D&D 5E Encounter Balance holds back 5E

[mamba]

So my 15th level Eldritch Knight with an 8 intelligence is not allowed to cast fireball even though it is a spell he knows?

you understand the point I was making, no reason to nitpick.

If my Wizard gets grappled is he allowed to try to escape (no proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics) .... to pull on this thread even more - does a grapple or shove attempt automatically succeed since he has no proficiency and therefore can't make a check to resist?

Is my 20 strength raging Barbarian who gets advantage on athletics checks allowed to even make athletics checks if he is not proficient?

I do not recall saying that you need to be proficient for all checks, but I don't necessarily let everything be a free for all either. If you want to decipher / understand some magic runes, you better be proficient in Arcana if you want to try

 

[pawsplay]

The biggest problem I have with restricting skill checks, second to simply breaking the RAW in a big way and upsetting the presumed balance, is that the DM places themselves in the position of stating who they think the PC. The classic one I hear is, "Well, would you let the Barbarian make an Arcana check to see if they recognize those arcane symbols?"

I mean, yes. Maybe they happened to recognize them by chance, or because of a previous adventure. Maybe that cult killed their village. Maybe they are a professional wizard hunter. The very next level, they might spend a Feat and become proficient in Arcana. Do they suddenly go from being "the dumb barbarian" to being a master of the Arcane?

Unless a certain use literally involves a complex technical use, like brewing a healing potion or unlocking some kind of super lock made by the ancient Space Dwarves, proficiency should never be a barrier to attempting a skill. If a player says their character would and could try, I believe them, period. 5e's proficiency is too granular in the first place to put too much distance between able to try, and not able to try. The penalty for being non-proficient is that your bonus will always be pretty flat, whereas someone who is proficient will advance.

If a skill attempt cannot be successfully done by someone who is not trained, at all, ever, the DC should be 25 or higher.

 

[jayoungr]

Honestly, I don't think it is as important as you want it to be, not unless you're not engaging with player abilities or, as @mamba suggested, you have exactly one resource-using encounter per day.

"As important as you want it to be" is a measure of the amount of interest and attention you put into it. It's perception and feelings, not mechanics.

Is it the latter?

The number of encounters per adventuring day varies from session to session and depends partly on choices made by the players.

 

[mamba]

Unless a certain use literally involves a complex technical use, like brewing a healing potion

why is brewing a healing potion more gated than reading arcane runes? The same argument for why the Barbarian should be able to try the latter applies to the former as well. Maybe they picked it up from the shaman in their village

Either everyone should be able to try everything, or your reason for why something is gated is no better than anyone else’s

 

[Micah Sweet]

"As important as you want it to be" is a measure of the amount of interest and attention you put into it. It's perception and feelings, not mechanics.


The number of encounters per adventuring day varies from session to session and depends partly on choices made by the players.

Mechanics are what separates one TTRPG (like 5e) from another TTRPG (like not 5e). Perception and feelings don't change the game system you've decided to use.

 

[pawsplay]

why is brewing a healing potion more gated than reading arcane runes? The same argument for why the Barbarian should be able to try the latter applies to the former as well. Maybe they picked it up from the shaman in their village

Either everyone should be able to try everything, or your reason for why something is gated is no better than anyone else’s

Partly because brewing a healing potion isn't normally a DC you roll against during an adventure, so there is otherwise a risk of making it trivial.

But mainly because brewing a healing potion requires knowledge of a formula and the skill to make it, and I would really like to hear your explanation of how someone has the knowledge to do that and is yet non-proficient on all other checks involving any of the involved proficiencies.

So, no, I don't see the logic of the comparison you are making, but maybe you can elaborate on why you think it makes sense. Because it seems like you just went, well pawsplay doesn't make sense, so here's another example that also doesn't make sense. But your example doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it really has anything to do with what I just said. I don't think the distinction I'm making is arbitrary.

But then again, if you want to rule it this way on your home campaign, I think that's fine, too.

 

[jayoungr]

Mechanics are what separates one TTRPG (like 5e) from another TTRPG (like not 5e). Perception and feelings don't change the game system you've decided to use.

I really feel like we are talking on two different, parallel tracks here. This whole thing started with a claim that D&D 5E "wants" to have a lot of combat. Then I said that the only thing lots of combat is important for is making the resource management part of the game work better and not every group really cares whether that system is operating at peak efficiency or not, because they may be focusing more of their attention on other things. And that those groups aren't doing anything wrong, if that's how they prefer to play.

Do you disagree with those statements? They seem really self-evident to me, and I honestly don't understand how it's led to accusations that I'm not really playing D&D or that I want to completely ignore resources altogether, to the point of allowing unlimited use of consumables. I'm not even talking about my own table(s) here, just observing that a wide variation in playstyles exists. Which, again, I don't see how anyone can dispute.

 

[mamba]

But mainly because brewing a healing potion requires knowledge of a formula and the skill to make it, and I would really like to hear your explanation of how someone has the knowledge to do that and is yet non-proficient on all other checks involving any of the involved proficiencies.

what do you consider to be the involved proficiencies? Also, I did not say they would not be proficient in all involved checks (assuming you think it takes more than one), I said there is not really much of a difference between deciphering magic runes or brewing a potion when it comes to whether it would be allowed to be gated.

You can come up with a reason for why a Barbarian could attempt to decipher the runes, just like you can come up with a reason for why they can attempt to brew a potion. Knowledge is knowledge, if they can acquire one knowledge without being proficient, why not another

 

[Micah Sweet]

I really feel like we are talking on two different, parallel tracks here. This whole thing started with a claim that D&D 5E "wants" to have a lot of combat. Then I said that the only thing lots of combat is important for is making the resource management part of the game work better and not every group really cares whether that system is operating at peak efficiency or not, because they may be focusing more of their attention on other things. And that those groups aren't doing anything wrong, if that's how they prefer to play.

Do you disagree with those statements? They seems really self-evident to me, and I honestly don't understand how it's led to accusations that I'm not really playing D&D or that I want to completely ignore resources altogether, to the point of allowing unlimited use of consumables. I'm not even talking about my own table(s) here, just observing that a wide variation in playstyles exists. Which, again, I don't see how anyone can dispute.

I just don't see how you can play 5e without caring about resource management in a significant way. It's at the core of virtually all the player side mechanics in the game. That's what "fundamental" means to me. What "other things" in 5e are you focusing your attention on that make resource management less important? Because the mechanics of pretty much the whole game of 5e care about it very much. Do you not engage with the mechanics much at all at your table?

 

[pawsplay]

what do you consider to be the involved proficiencies?

This is covered in detail in Xanathar's.