Xorn, movement, and attacks

[Mercule]

We've been fighting Xorn lately. Okay, more specifically, we've been getting ambushed by Xorn lately.

Based on the description of the Xorn "moving through stone the way a fish moves through water", my DM decided that a xorn could "stand" in the square (cube?) directly beneath someone and attack upwards. Likewise for walls.

Obviously, this puts us at something of a disadvantage, since we can't attack back. Our only option has been to wait for the xorn to attack one of our guys and try to beat on it with readied actions. Our party of 13th level characters can't even kill one xorn. The best we can do is wound it enough to make it retreat.

The DM's actually been reasonably cool about this and asked if anyone saw any reason why the xorn wouldn't be able to do this. It's a nasty tactic, but if the xorn is physically capable of using it, he (rightly, IMO) sees no reason to artificially not do so.

So, the question is: Is this a proper interpretation of the xorn's abilities? And, is there something unambiguous written about it somewhere?

 

[Caliban]

We've been fighting Xorn lately. Okay, more specifically, we've been getting ambushed by Xorn lately.

Based on the description of the Xorn "moving through stone the way a fish moves through water", my DM decided that a xorn could "stand" in the square (cube?) directly beneath someone and attack upwards. Likewise for walls.

Obviously, this puts us at something of a disadvantage, since we can't attack back. Our only option has been to wait for the xorn to attack one of our guys and try to beat on it with readied actions. Our party of 13th level characters can't even kill one xorn. The best we can do is wound it enough to make it retreat.

The DM's actually been reasonably cool about this and asked if anyone saw any reason why the xorn wouldn't be able to do this. It's a nasty tactic, but if the xorn is physically capable of using it, he (rightly, IMO) sees no reason to artificially not do so.

So, the question is: Is this a proper interpretation of the xorn's abilities? And, is there something unambiguous written about it somewhere?

I don't have my books with me, and can't access the Wizards site from work, but here's a few random ideas:

Do Xorn's have any extra sensory abilities that would allow them to sense you through solid rock? If not, they would have to surface to see where you are, and would be striking blind (50% miss chance) when they attack through the floor.

If they do have a way of sensing you, then everybody should have or acquire a means of levitating or flying, so that the xorn will have to come above ground to attack. If nothing else, it will allow you to avoid the encounter.

Cast Wall of Iron, let it fall, then stand on the iron platform. The Xorn can move through earth, not metal.
Summon Earth Elementals to attack the Xorn. They can also move through earth.

 

[AuraSeer]

You're probably making tremorsense too powerful.

First off, if the xorn's eyes are in the wall, it can't see you and all its attacks suffer a 50% miss chance. Tremorsense only allows it to sense your location.

It can only sense moving creatures in contact with the ground. A character who stands still and takes no physical actions is totally invisible to tremorsense; ditto for anyone flying, or levitating, or in noncorporeal form.

Also, if you're having this problem at 13th level, you're probably not taking full advantage of your spellcasters. Readying save-or-lose spells like disintegrate could end the fight in one round; even hold monster will make it hold still while you beat on it. Fly spells for the whole party would make you invisible to its tremorsense. Or you could always use summon monster VII to get an elder xorn of your own, and send it in to beat the enemy on its own terms.

 

[Majere]

Doesnt sound unreasonable
Our DM does it all the time wth undead
Try readying a few spells instead of swords

Off the top of my head:
Summon monster 7 - Lots of xorns who can chase and kill your attacker
Disintigrate
Soften earth and stone ( It doesnt say xorns can move through mud, so
it cant reach up to attack you )
Locate creature (how many xorn are about if the nearest one isnt the one you want?)
Dismissal
Baleful polymorph
Trasmute rock to mud (it doesnt say they can move throught mud)
Repulsion
Banishment

Combination..
Disintigrate the earth that the xorn is submerged in and then :
resiliant sphare the xorn
beat the crap out of it
wall of iron the pit it is now residing in
force cage it
disintigrate the xorn

These are just the unimaginative ones I can think of off the top of my head, Im sure you can do better.


If you have a druid they can wildshapr into a xorns and chase it/beat on it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Creatures like this cannot attack with total impunity, UNLESS they're attacking blind - in which case they suffer a 50% miss chance.

They can't pop out of the floor/wall/whatever, attack, then retreat again without spring attack. They certainly can't attack from the floor right underneath you without suffering that miss chance (because they cannot share your square).

 

[Mercule]

Creatures like this cannot attack with total impunity, UNLESS they're attacking blind - in which case they suffer a 50% miss chance.

They can't pop out of the floor/wall/whatever, attack, then retreat again without spring attack. They certainly can't attack from the floor right underneath you without suffering that miss chance (because they cannot share your square).

Could you elaborate on this idea?

The line of thought running in the group is that (using the example of attacking through the wall) the Xorn is standing in one square and in the next square over is a PC. If the two were just standing still, the Xorn would be completely withing the wall and the PC completely outside of it.

If the wall weren't a factor, the Xorn and the PC would threaten one another because they are in neighboring squares. The PC doesn't have a way to attack into the Xorn's stone-filled square, though. The Xorn, however, can "move through stone as easily as a fish through water", which implies no significant penalty to movement.

As far as sensing goes, the PC, obviously can't see through stone. The Xorn has Tremorsense, though. Tremorsense says that it allows the user to "pinpoint the location" of any target touching the floor. I read "pinpoint" as meaning no concealment, etc. In other words, no miss chance for line-of-sight.

Are we misinterpretting something here?

As far as spells go, the mage is a sorcerer. No Fly, Levitate or anything similar. The only thing close is Charm Monster, but being in combat would probably negate it. Disintegrate is available, but no one really wants to be the decoy with a death ray zipping around.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as sensing goes, the PC, obviously can't see through stone. The Xorn has Tremorsense, though. Tremorsense says that it allows the user to "pinpoint the location" of any target touching the floor. I read "pinpoint" as meaning no concealment, etc. In other words, no miss chance for line-of-sight.

Are we misinterpretting something here?

Yeah. "Pinpoint" means "know which square they're in".

You can pinpoint an invisible creature with a Listen check, but you still get the 50% Miss Chance, 'cos they still have Total Concealment.

If you don't pinpoint them, not only do you have a 50% Miss Chance, but you also have to guess a square to attack into.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Could you elaborate on this idea?

The line of thought running in the group is that (using the example of attacking through the wall) the Xorn is standing in one square and in the next square over is a PC. If the two were just standing still, the Xorn would be completely withing the wall and the PC completely outside of it.

Yup - this is right. It's as if the PC has a one-way-wall between him and the xorn which doesn't provide cover for him, but DOES provide (total) cover for the xorn.

As far as sensing goes, the PC, obviously can't see through stone. The Xorn has Tremorsense, though. Tremorsense says that it allows the user to "pinpoint the location" of any target touching the floor. I read "pinpoint" as meaning no concealment, etc. In other words, no miss chance for line-of-sight.

Are we misinterpretting something here?

Yeah - tremorsense, in precisely the way that our little blue buddy said. Tremorsense doesn't negate miss penalties.

As far as spells go, the mage is a sorcerer. No Fly, Levitate or anything similar. The only thing close is Charm Monster, but being in combat would probably negate it. Disintegrate is available, but no one really wants to be the decoy with a death ray zipping around.

You could always move to squares around the xorn square, delay, and then disintegrate the floor in the square where the xorn is, and all take full attacks against it immediately afterwards. Disintegrate does a 10 foot cube of nonliving matter.

Or alternately ready the disintegrate for when someone is attacked, then blast the cube the xorn is in for much the same effect (minus full attacks).

 

[Mercule]

Yeah - tremorsense, in precisely the way that our little blue buddy said. Tremorsense doesn't negate miss penalties.

Ran this by the DM and he said that it makes sense. He still wants to read the rules and verify, but he was quite receptive to the whole thing.

Thanks, all.